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thanks Jim, yes i looked in the manual and it doesn't even cover it. I bought the module used when I first got into modular and so not sure if it's original or clone. It has a black face panel but I think the guy said he changed it to match his other black ones. As I said I did get it working once so it's not a design/build issue. The module works in every other way so it's a puzzle. I might try the Mutable support, cheers for that.