Modular + Looper

Found this on Synthtopia this morning. I think it's a great idea.

It's a good idea. You can also loop internally with modules like the 1010 Music BitBox. It can look in sync with your CV clock or MIDI (if your sequencer supports MIDI). It offers a 16 cell grid of sample playback, so it can handle loops AND one shots like drums.

The only issue would be wanting to change your tempo later. But a quick trip to and from Ableton Live will solve that. You can open up a 16 cell kit in Ableton Live, warp your samples to another tempo, then save and replace your samples at the new tempo.

Oh and if you're handy with editing XML, you can quickly assemble new kits from any sample collection you have and save them to BitBox's SD card.

Gee-whillikers! I don't have a looper sitting with my modular, so I guess I'm just not hip and with it anymore.

Bollocks. OK, let's dig into what's going on here...

Why look, he's using a little skiff, so those must be the way to go...right? So...look more carefully, and you'll notice a couple of stompboxes, some additional things (including an Apex tile...uncased, far right) and the RC-505. Said RC-505 also has internal FX, too. So the synth isn't exactly doing what it's capable of alone. The patch is also difficult to sort out, mainly due to slinging patch cables all over the place so that you (and quite possibly, the presenter) can't really tell how things are routed.

Also, one of the links in the "more videos" bar shows the same little Intellijel skiff used for...generative? Maybe so, but probably not. Generative patches are ones which have a LOT of crossmodulation and internal patch alteration in order to generate non-repeating patterns across SEVERAL voices so that the synth is spinning out a sonic result that is in constant flux. Doing this in a tiny skiff is just not going to cut it; it would be the equivalent of hooking up a noise source to a sample and hold to a VCO and saying that that was "generative".

And therein lies another problem. If there was sufficient space in that Palette, the YouTuber would do FAR BETTER by fitting a Bitbox, Squid Salmple, STS, GXN, Rample, and so on into the cab because those can be directly controlled/modulated by sources within the build itself. But there's NOT...so we get to deal with a big, clunky Boss box that takes up about as much space as...

...wait for it...

...another Eurorack case. WHYYYYYYYYY!?!?!?!?!

OK, I'll calm down. But also, the thumbnail for this YT clips screams "clickbait", and that alone should be sufficient warning. If someone on YT has something SUBSTANTIAL to post, they won't need clickbait to get attention for it. When I talk about NOT paying attention to YouTube for your information...this sort of thing is PRECISELY what I'm talking about.

Generative patches are ones which have a LOT of crossmodulation and internal patch alteration in order to generate non-repeating patterns across SEVERAL voices so that the synth is spinning out a sonic result that is in constant flux.

@Lugia Wow. Did not know. Many thanks from a grateful noob.

@Lugia I'm glad to see you fired up as usual 🤣 but I must step in to defend our dear friend Mylar. He tends to be super transparent, loves breaking down patches and sharing ideas, and is overall a credit to the community. I think if you watched that generative vid for example you'd come away with an appreciation for someone who's trying to make things accessible without dumbing it down too much. Give it a shot in the Christmas spirit ;p

Yeah, I'll step in to sing the praises of MylarMelodies as well. I've probably learned more useful information about modular from his videos and podcast than all of the forums out there combined. The generosity and modesty of his wisdom and humor is apparent if you look past a "clickbait" title on a single video. I'm not a big fan of the tiny palette videos out there, but I also understand that for a lot of people, modular is not a lifestyle but a hobby and a curiosity. These are just videos to show what can be done with a more modest investment, though I'm not sure that everyone realizes the very real exploratory limitations of the palette-as-instrument.
Mylar is the man. Respect where it's due.

I'm not sure that everyone realizes the very real exploratory limitations of the palette-as-instrument.

@farkas Correct, as @Lugia can attest. (I'm starting to think that pallettes only exist for YT videos...)

That said, Mylar does have a point about using loopers with modular. It allows you to add more layers to your sound without taking up as much space as more modules. (The exception, of course, is Mylar's setup.)

So it looks like sound-on-sound/looper modules are the way to go:
* 1010 BitBox
* Make Noise Morphagene
* ALM Squid Salmple
* Etc.

What modules do you guys use?

EDITED Dec 18th 2021, 16:45

I like the 4ms Dual Looping Delay

I use a Zoom ST-224 Sampletrak, myself. Nice device, can run a number of loops without synchronization of different lengths, ergo I use it for backdrops. The constantly varying VLF and shortwave noises throughout this work are all running on the Zoom: https://daccrowell.bandcamp.com/track/umi-no-kami-ni-kansha

Other than that, which is pretty different from looping as shown here, I do all of the rhythmic loopwork in Ableton Live. And theoretically, there's several other devices in here that can also serve as looping devices, and technically I can get signals from the modular "sandbox" to the other side of the room for control (if I don't use MIDI SYSEX for it, that is).

I'm also in the "study phase" of a work that's more for installation purposes which will use my Akai S6000 to play numerous LONG loops, ala "Music for Airports," but more complex in timbral diversity. I don't think I can get that working until I refit the sampler with a Gotoh or Nalbantov FD-to-digital media device, as the longest loops here will be up to around 10 minutes, and these add-on devices enable storage in the hundreds of gigabytes.

the thumbnail for this YT clips screams "clickbait", and that alone should be sufficient warning. If someone on YT has something SUBSTANTIAL to post, they won't need clickbait to get attention for it. When I talk about NOT paying attention to YouTube for your information...this sort of thing is PRECISELY what I'm talking about.
-- Lugia

Since you haven't actually watched what you pass such self-important judgement upon, I don't plan on taking notes from your galaxy brain takedowns, meight!

BTW folks here's a patch illustration to go with the vid (it...was linked in the description 😉): https://www.modulargrid.net/e/patches/view/86144

Thanks so much Jtunes_ia for sharing this and everyone (actually) watching it!

OK, I'll calm down. But also, the thumbnail for this YT clips screams "clickbait", and that alone should be sufficient warning. If someone on YT has something SUBSTANTIAL to post, they won't need clickbait to get attention for it. When I talk about NOT paying attention to YouTube for your information...this sort of thing is PRECISELY what I'm talking about.
-- Lugia

If you actually watch his videos, they're quite informative. And entertaining. Plus, he has a quite pleasant voice to listen to.

Well, there was a more to-the-point response to this, but MG's user login sabotage system ate it, so I'll try and paraphrase as best as possible.

Basically, go back and watch the first five minutes of your clip. Not from the mindset of the person who created it, but from that of some new-to-modular viewer. Is what you see going on something that clearly imparts the point you're trying to make, or is it something that's more likely to confuse them? And why I say only the first five minutes is very much related to how things work in the publishing and A&R realm: if you can't grab a listener by the ears with your track in 30 seconds or less, then you've got a problem.

See, you already know what you're doing. And that's fine...a lot of us do. But I see the importance of trying to educate beginners, and I know (from experience) that information imparted clearly is what's necessary when any of us put on that teacher hat. And what I saw simply wasn't accomplishing that. You're showing off a patch, but if I can't figure out what's going on because of all of the superfluous patch cords and stuff laying around, then that's likely to be a problem to someone with ZERO experience with these instruments.

Another thing that I think we all know is that it's impossible to build a complete system in a "beauty case", to borrow Dieter's term. You can certainly TRY...but either one of two things results: they either wind up with modular that DOES WORK, but which is an ergonomic nightmare, or they've spent sizable funds on something they thought they saw in a YouTube clip but which they've gotten wrong, so they've wound up with a costly noisemaker that's more likely to sit in a closet until the next geological epoch. And these tiny case builds are a huge issue on here, especially right now as there's a bunch of people who've seen YT videos, then think they can do this too, when in fact they can't. I think you'll agree that situations like that don't help either of us.

And there have been a lot of similar clips on the platform in the past year-plus, it would seem. Some are informational...but as a rule when the first thing that turns up is some tiny cab, this won't be about education. It's more of a "flex". And setting users off on an expensive tangent because they see a tiny build and they think they can build one, too...that's also not helpful. Sometimes, they DO ask for advice/help...but apply the "disgruntled customer" approach: for every one complaint you DO hear, there's nine that you DON'T.

So, YouTube. True, there's some very good presenters on there. But when I see a patch being demonstrated in a situation where there's a bunch of superfluous patchcords just laying around as visual clutter, that's annoying. To see it done without anything else in the clip is how you would approach this. Otherwise, what you have here is, at best, confusing; beginners shouldn't have to figure out what patchcords are "live" and which are "set dressing". And in a situation such as YouTube, where I know of one prolific YTer that was side-addressing an EV RE-20 in a number of their clips because...I guess?...they figured that you do that with ALL "big microphones", it's a good idea to look at a LOT of what's on there and ask:

"If I'm just beginning, does what I see help me or harm me?"

If there's any question about the latter, then it's probably time to retool what/how you're doing this. Especially if you're looking at the "harm me" part and questions DO arise.

Now, in my case, I came into that video clip cold. I try to work with a blank slate when checking these out. But when I saw a number of things right off the bat that tossed up quite a bit of what keeps turning up...and which I know causes problems for beginning modular users, of course I'm going to be displeased. But it's no "galaxy brain takedown", to use your words. Rather, it's concern for those starting out who might watch this and become convinced that they need one of those little modulars, so they DON'T get on MG and research...they get all amped up, then they hop on Perfect Circuit or whatever and buy stuff. Then they put it together, patch it up...and of course, nothing desirable happens. It's gotten better...but during parts of the last year, it seemed as if every day brought in someone else who'd gone in that direction and was now seeking a way to, in effect, "polish a turd". As noted above, this isn't musically productive nor useful.

I can understand that it's easier to present a concept in a distilled-down state. But given that many of these new users are actually looking for starter rigs, it would seem more sensible to present concepts on a proper (as in, in a Mantis or, at the bare minimum, a Palette104) build, if only to show what a beginning system can and should look like when you've patched the example up. Just a few onscreen graphics...if even that...would help to show what's going on, and if done right, you won't need to provide a link to the patch because it was presented in a clear and straightforward manner. And, hopefully, presented so that new users can see that the same patch can be taken in various other directions, and how that would work. That would be a method of realistically presenting that information, as opposed to a "special case" situation which could cause confusion for new users. And if you think there's no confusion about this...well, spend a couple of weeks on here over the holidays and see how often the "beauty case" problem rears its head. It's annoying and disturbing, and it does more to confuse than inform.

Again, when you or I or anyone presents a concept on YouTube, it's essential to put on your "teacher's hat". Keep asking yourself as the camera rolls whether you're helping or not. If not, that's why editing software exists. But it IS a dichotomy you (and others) need to remember when presenting something to viewers that might only have a skeletal view of what to do, so you need to approach this as if you have a class of students in front of you. That's pretty much the actual situation, anyway. And if I (or anyone else) click off your clips at 5-ish minutes, it's not "self-important judgement" that's at play, but me asking the same questions above and finding that, no, that's not exactly helpful. The big difference here is that you got to hear about my objections; how many objections do you not hear, however? Or worse, how many viewers came away with the wrong ideas in mind? That one, you don't and can't know.

Sure, I probably did get the wrong impression about your video. But then, how I arrived at that impression is what you need answered. So, re-read this in a more "neutral" mindset, put that hat on, and re-watch the clip in question. My objections should be pretty apparent pretty quickly.

EDITED Dec 19th 2021, 23:26

Well, I for one would be nowhere if it wasn't for the helpful YT videos of Mylar.Melodies, DivKid, Ricky Tinez, Red means Recording, Molten Modular, and that Calm Swedish guy who's name currently eludes me etc etc.
Having someone visually showing you on a YT video or demoing a Module, creative patching or even coming back to a comment you might make on their YT has been invaluable to me.
For me its about gleaning bits of knowledge, from the ordering of modules to learning what sounds I want, patch walk through's, learning what I don't want.

As I've said before though, my main driver in all this is FUN, my own personal entertainment.

Maybe I don't read too deeply into what I'm watching, I would think that would put me in the 'General viewer category'.

When I have the time and space to set up more elegantly I'll be 'Set Dressing' in my own ironic way, I'll be taking the Pi55 out of myself and all of YT, I'll be dressing it up with Post-it notes saying things like 'Succulent plant' 'spare cables' 'small skull' 'piece of bone' 'plastic dinosaur' 'coffee' 'Lego character' whatever ;-)

You're showing off a patch, but if I can't figure out what's going on because of all of the superfluous patch cords and stuff laying around, then that's likely to be a problem to someone with ZERO experience with these instruments.

I watched the Video and I didn't except it to be a Patch Breakdown Video. It's a Video to show what you can do with a small system and a Looper. And the Video shows me exactly that.

And what kind of argument is that someone with Zero Experience would have a Problem following what's going on with the Patch?
Does every Eurorack Video on YT needs to be suited for absolute Beginners?

And by now we all know that you don't like small systems.

I really can't se the Point for your rant

EDITED Dec 20th 2021, 11:20

And by now we all know that you don't like small systems.

-- Quantum_Eraser

Which isn't true. It's not that I "don't like small systems". What I don't like is the mistaken concept that you can cram an entire full-on modular into a small case...mainly because it's not true. Or rather, it CAN be true, but the build will require a pile of 4 hp and down modules. In theory, that could be playable, but the experience of playing it would be pretty awful due to having to snake your fingers around the patchcables, the tightly-placed knobs, and all of the plugs.

Fact is, I have a Palette 104 setup in my own builds on here, but it's a "mission specific" one for adding some more complex modulation + mod manipulation to other modular gear in here later on. Plus, the 104 hp + 104 hp of tiles is ample space to allow me to directly address module controls by having larger modules in that case. But by no means would I consider it a "complete modular system"...because it isn't, and isn't supposed to be that in the first place.

The "Point" is this: here on the forum, there's been a bunch of people who've put together these super-tight builds and then figure they'll be perfect for their every musical purpose. Then when these pop up, a number of us on the forums will let that user know the basic truth about this nearly-impossible thing. That's not a dislike...it's informing a user that their build isn't going to work as expected, and that they might want to rethink things before dropping $$$ on something they're almost certain to dislike after working with it for a while. Nothing about this being my "dislike" there; rather, it's just another way of putting across the point that it makes sense to "use a case that you're SURE is larger than you want the synth to be...because you'll find that it wasn't too large in the first place".