Hi there,

I´m in the market for a big rack (10 x 84hp) and I have a few questions.
I have two smaller racks right now (2x104 each) and I can get a ton of good stuff out of this setup.
Since a while I´m thinking about a bigger "studiocase". A solid wood case with proper Hinton Instruments PSU, sitting on a nice rolling cart thing to move around.... I will keep a small one for live use though.

My questions

What did change for you when you switched to a bigger setup?
Do you work differently?
Do you work on patches for a longer time than in a small case?
Is it somehow harder or more easy to build a sound?
Was it a good step or do you regret it it any way?

Would be nice to hear about your experiences or your thoughts if you´re in the same position.
Thanks


Excellent topic.

I really like this thought by Winston Churchill: 'Out of intense complexities, intense simplicities emerge'.
That's pretty much what I experienced as I let my modular, and my home studio, expand...

For my part, I would add: and as we got older, we end up meeting from time to time :)

'On ne devrait jamais quitter Montauban' (Fernand Naudin).
https://soundcloud.com/petrus-major/tracks


So, you started curating your modules more precisely when building a patch? Is that what you´re saying?


So, you started curating your modules more precisely when building a patch? Is that what you´re saying?

-- ak47exe

Yes, that's right. And, above all, I simplify things in my production.
In the beginning we're understandably a bit voracious, but the more we add on the table, the more discriminating gourmet we become.

'On ne devrait jamais quitter Montauban' (Fernand Naudin).
https://soundcloud.com/petrus-major/tracks


by 10 x 84hp do you mean 10u or 30u?

if 10u:

it's not really a much bigger case than the one you already have... only 60hp more for 3u modules + a 1u row

is this in addition to the 6u 104hp case you already have or a replacement? as an addition it's fine - although I'd probably go for a 104hp case so they can be arranged better and not be ciffering widths, if it's a replacement, then there's not a lot of extra space to grow into - so the next case will be wanted/needed sooner rather than later

if 30u:

I really wouldn't want a monolithic 30u x 84hp rack...

I'd go wider and lower - I have, effectively, 18u * 188hp - made up of 4 cases (2 * 9u 104hp, 2 * 9u 84hp) so that the lower 2 are near horizontal and the upper 2 are near vertical... this is much easier to deal with than 30u straight up imo - so I'd halve it vertically and double the width to give 15u 168hp - it's also better for module arrangement - I kind of follow the arp 2600 layout & that works quite well

"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia

Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities


Basically it's 10 3u frames in 5 rows. (2x 84hp wide and 15u height)

this way i can also fit 19"outboard or a 500 rack inside.


Basically it's 10 3u frames in 5 rows. (2x 84hp wide and 15u height)

this way i can also fit 19"outboard or a 500 rack inside.
-- ak47exe

that's a decent size and layout!

What did change for you when you switched to a bigger setup?

longer cables & layout - see above... you may find that you want to use your current 6u 104hp case as a control skiff in front if the 15u is vertical - I find that I prefer sequencers, controllers, end of chain mixer etc are best horizontal and at the front

Do you work differently?

not really, more an extrapolation of what I was doing with a smaller case... more voices to patch (potentially) - use more utilities to make the most of modulation (multing, combining, inverting, attenuating etc) so less modulation sources can be used to modulate more modules... with related modulation... so things fit together better...

a bigger case also opens up different lavels of control... for example vcas are no longer just for modulation and note shaping... they are now also for gain control over time (ie autonated mixing) - which is i suppose a different way of working - still working on this

one thing I do have that's really useful in this size & bigger cases & with larger numbers of voices is a sinfonion... really handy for keeping things in key and supplying chordal notes on top of 3-4 'melodic/bass' voices - also really helps in terms of arrangement - as you can alter the octave ramge of voices...

also a bigger mixer is useful - I'm using a tesseract tex-mix - currently with 12 mono channels and 4 stereo channels

Do you work on patches for a longer time than in a small case?

probably - they take longer to patch - and take longer to finesse

Is it somehow harder or more easy to build a sound?

the same... there are just more modules to choose from...

Was it a good step or do you regret it it any way?

more choice is good... more voices are good... so a good step...

"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia

Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities


Regarding mixers, I finally gave in trying to find something I'd be happy with in-rack and ended up buying an external mixer, the Tascam Model 12. It's a digital mixer (6 mono / 2 stereo channels) that handles eurorack levels well. With it I can also record on an SD card on the unit or use it as a multi-track audio interface to record to computer.


Regarding mixers, I finally gave in trying to find something I'd be happy with in-rack and ended up buying an external mixer, the Tascam Model 12. It's a digital mixer (6 mono / 2 stereo channels) that handles eurorack levels well. With it I can also record on an SD card on the unit or use it as a multi-track audio interface to record to computer.
-- PragmaticusMax

Good to now! I´m also interested in the tascam Mixers... Do you know if this is true for the bigger models as well? The Model 12 is the only digital one, right?


longer cables & layout - see above... you may find that you want to use your current 6u 104hp case as a control skiff in front if the 15u is vertical - I find that I prefer sequencers, controllers, end of chain mixer etc are best horizontal and at the front

OK, thats probably ergonomically better to have it horizontally or what is the matter?
The Case is not entirely straight. Its straight at the top but concave towards the bottom.

I didn´t think about new cables that will add cost of course.

not really, more an extrapolation of what I was doing with a smaller case... more voices to patch (potentially) - use more utilities to make the most of modulation (multing, combining, inverting, attenuating etc) so less modulation sources can be used to modulate more modules... with related modulation... so things fit together better...

Sounds like the way I like to work anyway... nice

Do you work on patches for a longer time than in a small case?

probably - they take longer to patch - and take longer to finesse

Would you say they got better though?


In the beginning we're understandably a bit voracious, but the more we add on the table, the more discriminating gourmet we become.

-- Sweelinck

Never more true words, I am definitley becoming a discriminating gourmet, I even feel like my module-buying is slowly coming to an end.... Shocking I know

Enjoy your spare HP, don't rush to fill every last space, this is not like filling sticker books. Resist the urge to 'complete' your rack, its never complete so just relax.

https://youtube.com/@wishbonebrewery


Regarding mixers, I finally gave in trying to find something I'd be happy with in-rack and ended up buying an external mixer, the Tascam Model 12. It's a digital mixer (6 mono / 2 stereo channels) that handles eurorack levels well. With it I can also record on an SD card on the unit or use it as a multi-track audio interface to record to computer.
-- PragmaticusMax

Good to now! I´m also interested in the tascam Mixers... Do you know if this is true for the bigger models as well? The Model 12 is the only digital one, right?

-- ak47exe

The 16 and 24 are both analog. I have no experience with those so can't definitively say they handle eurorack like the 12. I went with the Model 12 because it was the right size for me (I know, famous last words), and since the controls are digital, it can be used as a DAW controller (haven't tried this feature yet, though).


In the beginning we're understandably a bit voracious, but the more we add on the table, the more discriminating gourmet we become.

-- Sweelinck

Never more true words, I am definitley becoming a discriminating gourmet, I even feel like my module-buying is slowly coming to an end.... Shocking I know

-- wishbonebrewery

When I first got into this, I wanted every module out there. As my collection grew, I started being more cognizant of function overlap. No need to get a module, no matter how pretty it is, if all it does is perform the same function as a module I already own.

The big change for me came when experimenting with patches and I learned what I see as one of the most important rules in eurorack, "Turn the knobs slowly, real slowly." I had a tendency when playing to make these big moves, testing the extremes. It's when you make small control changes that you really learn the module and find all kinds of sweet spots (waves going into phase, amplitudes mixing at just the right level, etc.).

After that I was finding features in modules that I didn't know were there. Now every time I see a new module, I think of all the little extra features my exisiting modules have and I consider if I can already do, with one or more currently-owned modules, what the new module does.


In the beginning we're understandably a bit voracious, but the more we add on the table, the more discriminating gourmet we become.

-- Sweelinck

Never more true words, I am definitley becoming a discriminating gourmet, I even feel like my module-buying is slowly coming to an end.... Shocking I know

-- wishbonebrewery

this is very true for most people - almost all new modules are combinations or extrapolations of existing modules, that to a large extent can be patched up from what you have (if you have the basic building blocks of synthesis in your rack and not just shiny expensive do it all modules) - there's the odd one that innovates massively, but they are very uncommon amd not necessarily that useful...

I'm definitely in a similar position regarding audio modules - there are a few things I would like to add in the future, but no real urgency... an extra oscillator (a duplicate of one I already have - to use as a 2 oscillator voice), a control surface (possibly a tnsm or a tetrapad/tete or similar) and then it's just a few relatively simple utilities... another matrix mixer, a vc polarizer, maybe a couple of submixers

the same can almost be said for video too... I know almost exactly what I want to be able to do, that I can't already do... but again no real rush... some/most/all of it is doable with modules that are either currently available, or (hopefully) will be soon... it's just having the spare cash (if you thought audio modular was expensive... take a look at analog video modular)... and I have no real need for HD - I kind of like the retro SD vibe...

I do like a bit of DIY though - so this may continue - unless/until my eye sight gets too bad... I do want to finish my backlog though... but all of that is smd (that I don't really like) and have been putting off for a long time...

"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia

Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities


I started being more cognizant of function overlap. No need to get a module, no matter how pretty it is, if all it does is perform the same function as a module I already own.

to a large extent this is true, especially of big shiny expensive modules... but functional overlap in utilities is handy... multiple vcas, mults, mixers, logic, clock dividers etc are extremely useful! especially once you've grown beyond a few voices... and are starting to look at multiple layers of control... not just controlling the shape, panning and sound of notes, but also controlling sections of 'songs' - bring in this voice for this section, add this effect for a bar every 4 bars...

"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia

Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities


I started being more cognizant of function overlap. No need to get a module, no matter how pretty it is, if all it does is perform the same function as a module I already own.

to a large extent this is true, especially of big shiny expensive modules... but functional overlap in utilities is handy... multiple vcas, mults, mixers, logic, clock dividers etc are extremely useful! especially once you've grown beyond a few voices... and are starting to look at multiple layers of control... not just controlling the shape, panning and sound of notes, but also controlling sections of 'songs' - bring in this voice for this section, add this effect for a bar every 4 bars...

-- JimHowell1970

I never really thought about it until you mentioned that, but I guess I view those utilities differently from other modules. I put them in the same class as patch cables. Yeah, the wires all do the same thing, but you need more of them as your system gets bigger to connect all the new pieces.


I switched from multiple smaller cases (the biggest being 7U x 104HP) to a "monster" case 15U x 120HP at the beginning of the year (links in signature). It changed a lot. In the beginning I felt overwhelmed and intimidated by the scope of the new big case. I had to pick a layout to get going with it, and my initial layout choices weren't the best. I was a bit frustrated because modules were no longer where I expected them to be after a long time with my smaller case layouts developing muscle memory. Patching took longer and more effort. I had moments of doubt where I almost regretted the bigger case purchase.

But I was patient with myself, took a bit of a break, and then eased myself back into things with no expectations about making great patches. Now a few months after all that, I am making more interesting patches than I ever had before and I love it more than ever. But it was an multi-month adjustment period with some emotional turmoil along the way.

To answer some of your questions:

Do you work differently?

Yes, I used to start with a fresh patch almost every session. Now the act of building up a really interesting patch in such a big rack is a lot of effort, and I sometimes struggle to get started because of the "blank canvas" problem more than I used to with small cases. So I have adjusted and now when I sit down with my modular, I usually change and extend my current patch rather than starting all over.

Do you work on patches for a longer time than in a small case?

Yes! My last song I had the same patch going for over a month (resulting in this track: ). That is crazy to me. I used to rip all the cables out and start a new patch almost every day. But I really like going to deeper with things. It's good. I'm making better music IMO.

Is it somehow harder or more easy to build a sound?

It takes more effort to build up an interesting patch, but I feel much more empowered to make more intricate, cooler sounding music with all of my main tools accessible in one big rack. So overall I have to put more effort into things, but it is easier for me to get the results I am looking for in the end, if that makes sense. Often in my smaller cases, I would hit a wall due to limitations, and try to make the most of it, but compromise on my ideas out of necessity. In my big case, I never use all the modules, not even close! So I am able to explore to my hearts content and there is always more room to grow the patch.

Was it a good step or do you regret it it any way?

As I explained in the beginning, I felt hints of regrets initially because it was a big adjustment. But I gave myself some mental space to step away and slowly adjust, and things clicked, and now I'm so glad I did it.

One other side effect worth mentioning: It really slowed down my module purchases. I used to have the "GAS" / FOMO problem pretty bad and bought a lot of stuff really fast during the pandemic. But I like most of my modules and don't want to get rid of them. So if I want to get another module, I have to think very hard about moving something out of my big case AND I have to figure out how to rework the layout. Often just swapping one module can lead to a chain reaction of overhauling half the case's layout. With the big case, it is a multi-hour project. It's a pain and I kind of hate doing it now. I'd rather just play the synth. So now if I want to buy a module, I have to think about it for weeks or months. Is it really worth all the hassle? I usually decide I don't really need it. Previously I would impulse buy a lot of modules. This is a really good change for me.


Regarding mixers, I finally gave in trying to find something I'd be happy with in-rack and ended up buying an external mixer

Noise Engineering just released a new mixer... maybe it´s something you like


Thanks all so far... great answers.

Adam, from the name I can tell you have a Volkskabinett from Eric Needham, right? Are you happy with it? How´s the PSU? Any noise or other complaints?


In the beginning we're understandably a bit voracious, but the more we add on the table, the more discriminating gourmet we become.

Never more true words.

-- wishbonebrewery

Thank’s.

I am definitley becoming a discriminating gourmet, I even feel like my module-buying is slowly coming to an end.... Shocking I know

-- wishbonebrewery

Personally I am not shocked, I feel the same thing.

'On ne devrait jamais quitter Montauban' (Fernand Naudin).
https://soundcloud.com/petrus-major/tracks


Almost all new modules are combinations or extrapolations of existing modules, that to a large extent can be patched up from what you have (if you have the basic building blocks of synthesis in your rack and not just shiny expensive do it all modules)

-- JimHowell1970

I also had this reflection. We were lucky: we saw the birth of wonderful modules, some of which became classics, and they were easily available and cheaper!

For some time, a certain level seems to have been reached, including by means of the digital. Next step: the AI? I’m not sure to feel concerned...

'On ne devrait jamais quitter Montauban' (Fernand Naudin).
https://soundcloud.com/petrus-major/tracks


The AI discussion is pointless in my opinion. I realized it when i watched a review of a camera and the person reviewing it was saying "Sony pls make AI happen..." I was like "fuck please no". I´m into photography because of creating and not only because of the result. I mean I love it if the picture turns out to be awsome but i want to create it by myself. AI often feels like a shortcut

I never felt joy in using synth presets either. I guess thats what led me to Modular as well.
The process itself is what brings fun and knowledge in a delightful package :)
Any AI creating a sound for me will kill that nice vibe while you hear your new sound and I guess it´ll also kill the "aha effect" .
But maybe I´m wrong... maybe it´s just another way of being creative.
Anyway, I came to the conclusion that I couldn´t care less about AI synthesis. I just want to enjoy fiddling those beautiful knobs...

Professionally, thats a whole different story. I use bots like Chat GPT for lots of things. For example problems / concepts I just can´t wrap my head around. Things you can´t build on a breadboard quickly. Stuff like this... It´s fantastic in this regard. The most patient coworker I can possibly imagine :)


Never more true words, I am definitley becoming a discriminating gourmet, I even feel like my module-buying is slowly coming to an end.... Shocking I know

-- wishbonebrewery

Who would have guessed that a bigger case is the cure for GAS :D
Now I´m convinced to go for it.

Just imagine the look in the face of my imaginary girlfriend when I tell her that... lovely


I can only agree with all of this. First, to get the matter over with, if they bring AI to photography, I'm moving back to analog. Heck, that's what I did with music to a large extent already anyway!

Second, about the module purchases. I haven't even started building my large rack (planning 14U 168hp) yet, though I've asked one quote from a builder which wasn't bad. And I've already noticed the slowdown. My most recent oscillator is an Ensemble, which is quite something different. I see a few effects and small sequencers could be interesting, but they're not urgent. And indeed, utilities multiplying the possibilities. My most recent purchase is a Pico RND and a rotating clock divider - both are quite intriguing and just bring out more of what I already have. So instead of utilities being the base on which I build a system, it may actually be the other way round. Oscillators and effects are the base on which I can build stuff using utilities. I've gotten far more creativity out of PNW or Zadar than out of any sound source module so far. Best thing - it's frequently cheaper to buy utilities and cables than to buy those "hero" modules like sound sources, fancy filters or effects.


Thanks all so far... great answers.

Adam, from the name I can tell you have a Volkskabinett from Eric Needham, right? Are you happy with it? How´s the PSU? Any noise or other complaints?
-- ak47exe

Yes, that's right! It's a solid case. I don't really have anything to compare it to in this size/price range, but I'm plenty satisfied with it. It's got plenty of power, and I have some pretty power-hungry digital modules. I never worry about hitting power limits. Physical build quality is very good and it's designed for good ventilation. I think the price is reasonable for what you're getting (though I did get it during an initial launch sale, so that helped). Be aware: Assembly can be very challenging if you are not a DIY person, but I think with patience and determination, probably anyone can manage.

There are a few minor issues / things to note: You need to use a good amount of power or the power supply can emit a fairly noticeable high-pitched whine. I was warned about it and it's apparently expected with so much power being supplied. Once I had the case mostly full, it was not an issue. So you should be able to mostly fill it before investing in it.

I think some module in my rack is still emitting a faint high pitched noise though, but the room has to be quiet and I have to really listen to notice, so I just ignore it and it doesn't bother me. It's not clear if that's the module's fault or the power supply, or the combination of the two. The quality of my recordings is fine and I rarely hear it in practice, so I never bothered to diagnose this any further.

The only other issue is: depending on my layout, I think if I have certain combination of modules plugged into the same row of the power supply, certain modules (namely an original Mutable Instruments Marbles) does not always boot up correctly. My theory is some modules (probably digital) have a spike in power usage when first booting up. During an initial "cold boot", not every digital module gets the surge of power it needs and it crashes during boot-up. The module is unresponsive and does not work at all in this case. It's pretty obvious because usually there are some LEDs on but they aren't when this happens. Whenever this has happened, I wait a few seconds, power off, and quickly power back on. Then everything works fine. I guess this because some residual charge is still in capacitors or something, so more power is available on the second power-on then the initial cold one. I have always occasionally had this issue in other racks, so I really don't think it's this power supply's fault. Once you put a lot of modules from different manufacturers together, there can be issues. Maybe they are more likely in a bigger rack? But in my current layout, I don't seem to have this problem at all, so that's cool. It's not a big deal when it happens. You just gotta be aware and check your modules after powering on for the day.

Sorry if that's TMI, but with an investment this big, I know some people can be a bit "audiophile" and maybe get really upset hearing any high pitched noises or anything. So maybe my story will give you pause. I wouldn't be surprised if I experience all these things with a different manufacturer's "monster" case though. Like I said, the Marbles power-on issue happened in other racks too. For the most part, I feel thrilled things generally work great and any issues are ignorable.

PS - I live in the same city as Eric's workshop so I picked my case up in person and got to take a tour. He's a cool guy and seems really passionaite about making awesome high-end modular cases. I'd recommend his products if you think they are a good fit for you.


My theory is some modules (probably digital) have a spike in power usage when first booting up. During an initial "cold boot", not every digital module gets the surge of power it needs and it crashes during boot-up. The module is unresponsive and does not work at all in this case.
-- adamj

this is a 'known' feature of some electrical items... including modules... it's called 'inrush'

if it's only when plugged into certain places, I'd move it - possibly some busboards have limits...

"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia

Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities


this is a 'known' feature of some electrical items... including modules... it's called 'inrush'

if it's only when plugged into certain places, I'd move it - possibly some busboards have limits...

-- JimHowell1970

Yes, it's likely I had too many high power usage modules with significant inrush on the same busboard. I should have mentioned I have fixed this by plugging the problem module into a different busboard on the same power supply.

It's frustrating to discover a problem like this after installing all your modules, and maybe you are using all the plugs on a busboard so swapping things around isn't a simple matter. I have found it invaluable, especially after moving to a big case, to have a few multi-power cables / flying bus cables around to give me some extra plugs or even act as an extension cable to a far-away busboard. 4ms has always served me well for this: https://4mscompany.com/power.php

I bet it is more common to run into problems like this in a big case because you're installing more modules. More modules = more likely to encounter a problematic combination. It totally depends on your module collection, but if you have power hungry modules, you might end up with a layout with too many of them on the same busboard. So be aware of this potential problem, and my tip is to get some of those power cables and try swapping around which modules (the ones having problems) are plugged into which busboard.


The power thing is something you have to be aware of even with Mantis cases. The +12v power supply provides 3A, but split into three zones of 1A each. It's small enough space-wise, though, that it would take some really beefy modules to hit the max on any one zone.


The power thing is something you have to be aware of even with Mantis cases. The +12v power supply provides 3A, but split into three zones of 1A each. It's small enough space-wise, though, that it would take some really beefy modules to hit the max on any one zone.
-- PragmaticusMax

my big problem with the mantis is the -12v... but I am using it for video...

this happens a lot on all sizes of cases... a lot of small cases are underpowered...

the doepfer 9u cases are often underpwered... they have the same psu as the 6u (which the psu is fine for).. & the 9u are fine if you are using predominantly doepfer (or similar) analog modules, but start putting in small digital ones and...

"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia

Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities


this is a 'known' feature of some electrical items... including modules... it's called 'inrush'

if it's only when plugged into certain places, I'd move it - possibly some busboards have limits...

-- JimHowell1970

Its a phenomena where a capacitor with very low ESR is demanding very high current (becaus of the super low resistance) during startup and therefore the PSU is driven into saturation. That will probably cause trouble initializing digital modules... So yes, moving it would be a good idea... especially considering the lifespan of your PSU


Sorry if that's TMI
-- adamj

not at all.... thanks for the insight!