Is the Make Noise Tape and Microsound Machine a good entry level modular system? / Thread

Darclinc Posted: Sep 7th 2023, 15:00

Hello everyone,

I'm a newbie looking to buy my first modular rig. My emphasis is less on the standard VCO, VCF, VCA type stuff and more along the lines of found sound, experimental, textural and generative ideas. Despite my lack of knowledge on all things modular, I've put together what I consider to be a comprehensive setup on Modulargrid,net, aptly named 'I have no idea what I'm doing.'

You can see it here and give me feedback on it if you wish:

It features many popular modules from well-known manufacturers that I've come across in my research. I included these modules because they are widely used, reviewed, and have abundant learning resources on YouTube and the like. I have to start somewhere! I've also been experimenting with VCV Rack quite a bit, which heavily emphasises Mutable Instruments modules, so I've added some MI clones to my list since the originals are scarce, expensive and I have no idea what condition they might be in if I buy and ship them here. There is also no prominent modular supplier in the country I live in (South Africa), so I will have to import everything and would prefer to do so from one supplier like a Perfect Circuit or Sweetwater who I’ve used before (reputability, after sales, returns, shipping costs, import tax, etc.)

So, while I'd love to go for the full 3-row setup (who wouldn't), everything I've read suggests that it might be overwhelming. Despite wanting all those shiny modules now, I fully agree. As such I'm currently considering the Make Noise Tape and Microsound Machine, which complements my existing gear, including synths, controllers, mics, and preamps. This unit seems more manageable, interesting, powerful and includes all the modules from my larger rack, making it ideal for creating unique found sound textures and serving multiple purposes, now and in the future (hopefully). I have a long history of incorporating unconventional sounds into my music, ranging from home-made drum kits to mangled family chatter to delightful guinea pig squeals, so I think it will suit my style. Lastly, I'm also contemplating expanding it with a Tempi module later for enhanced clocking and modulation options.

Now, I have a few questions:

Despite having been in audio production and synths for 20+ years, how hard is this system and modules to learn?
Is this system a good starting point for a modular noob and my objectives?
Can I easily sync Tempi with my DAW (Cubase) to start/stop my modular rig with my arrangement?
Is it possible to reset the units clock when starting, stopping and resetting the playhead position?
Can this rig somehow accept other types of MIDI, like notes from my NI S88 keyboard? What options are available or what additional equipment is needed to do this?
Are there real risks of damaging any unit/s through improper patching (e.g., outputs into outputs)?

I can’t think of any other questions right now, but I'm sure more will come up. If you've read this far, thanks for indulging me.

Any feedback welcome!

Darclinc

EDITED Sep 7th 2023, 15:03

JimHowell1970 Posted: Sep 7th 2023, 16:12

Lastly, I'm also contemplating expanding it with a Tempi module later for enhanced clocking and modulation options.

I think it's a toss up between Tempi and Pams - the interfaces are quite different etc... try to work out which one you'd rather work with through watching videos and reading the manuals - Tempi is more button combination presses and Pams is more menu divey (although quite shallow and easy to learn - all channels have the same menu - but the 'programming' interface is relatively basic - the new screen - on the Pro - is apparantly much better and more informative than just some LEDs)

Now, I have a few questions:

Despite having been in audio production and synths for 20+ years, how hard is this system and modules to learn?

there'll definitely be a learning curve - take it slowly etc... you'll get there - it's not much different than vcv rack - except you'll have a limited number of module and a limited number of patch cables... and be able to physically control 2 differnt knobs at once...

Is this system a good starting point for a modular noob and my objectives?

the tape and sound machine - don't know - maybe - the rack above - imo too much to start with and very heavily leaning towards too many voices and effects and not enough moudlation and utiliites - see my signature for some hints!

Can I easily sync Tempi with my DAW (Cubase) to start/stop my modular rig with my arrangement?

probably - I use a kick sample in Logic for sync - played from my audio interface (es8) into PNW - works perfectly... I've set up Pams to start/stop/reset based on this clock... I've also heard of people using the run input similarly... I'd suspect that tempi can work the same - you may need some amplification for the clock etc...

Is it possible to reset the units clock when starting, stopping and resetting the playhead position?

see above answer to 3

Can this rig somehow accept other types of MIDI, like notes from my NI S88 keyboard? What options are available or what additional equipment is needed to do this?

depends on the midi->cv interface - I'd do some more research before committing to one - the mutant brain - now made by Erica Synths is reputedly a very good and versatile example - also available as a stand alone unit the cv.ocd - if rack space is an issue

Are there real risks of damaging any unit/s through improper patching (e.g., outputs into outputs)?

not really with most modern modules - this may have been an issue in the past - although it may also be an old wives tale to some extent - I've accidentally patched outputs to outputs many times and had a problem... (I have a reasonable number of the modules that you have in this rack - especially the mutable ones)

hope all this helps!

"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia

Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities

33PO Posted: Sep 7th 2023, 18:40

+1 for everything Jim says (as always)

You should expect your system to evolve as your needs change. The best advice I recieved is to start with just a few modules and learn how they fit into your workflow, then start adding modules that will expand and support your workflow

Mutable Instruments made some of the most innovative modules that have a bunch of different ways of patching. Stages for example can be envelopes/LFOs/StepSequencer or an oscillator. Great choice to go with MI as a brand

If you'll be working with found sounds a sampler might be a great addition to this system. ALM Squid or BitBox would be awesome.

Here's where I would start based on your description:
Keystep - Midi-CV
Clock - Pam's (for clocks and slow evolving LFO/Random)
Sound Source - Plaits
Filter - to taste (Cinnamon, Ikari, Wasp, lot's of great choices)
Sampler - BitBox Micro (also has Midi in)
External - Somethign to make connecting Mic or 1/4 instrument easy
Modulation - Stages/Clone for Envelopes and modulation
VCA - Veils/Clone
FX - to taste (Morphagene and Memeophone are very good, but there are TONS of amazing FX)
Audio Mixer - Something that interfaces with your other equipment well

This would be a fine starter system with lots of flexibility. Then I'd start adding things like a Marbles clone and other things that are in your original system

Darclinc Posted: Sep 7th 2023, 18:40

Thanks for your quick response, Jim, it is appreciated. Some responses to your posts below:

I thought about Pams (as you will have seen from the rack) and have seen mention of the Pro version, but it seems like there’s a fair amount of menu diving involved and people have said it’s a far more complicated unit than Tempi. Remains to be seen which is better for my use case, if I get one at all. I do like the idea of an all MN case though… (I know this is a silly thing to say)

Oddly this is one of the main reasons I want to get hardware, to negate the ‘endless modules’ possibilities and 'endless cables' of VCV. As nice as it is, I think all that choice isn’t necessarily a good thing. At first, perhaps, but certainly not in the long run. I think it lengthens your learning curve and as a result encumbers your ability to make useful stuff, well unless you stick to a handful of modules only. This is essentially what I'm trying to do, by just using a handful of MI modules and some utilities.

I know there’s at least one too many Plaits in there, but I do like the flexibility of it as a module that can be used for percussive as well as traditional voices. Any specific ideas on how to improve that silly rack in more specifically would be greatly appreciated! That's one thing I need to get a better handle on, utilities. I don't know enough about them at all.

Thanks, I have as yet been unable to find a definitive answer to this, specifically when it comes to using it with Cubase. It has all sorts of clock sending options, but this isn’t the typical midi clock stuff I'm used to. It’s quite important that I can do this though, since I would like to, whenever I use more rhythmically orientated and delayed sounds, for it to synchronise and play well with my other equipment and arrangements.

This is the thing, I am not sure how this works, at all, and haven’t been able to find much information on it. Is this a module only type of solution, i.e. you need a specific midi to CV module or are there other ways of accomplishing this via some kind of converter box? Or must your midi device specifically have CV out, like the Arturia controllers?

Every little bit helps, thanks!

Best,

Darclinc Posted: Sep 8th 2023, 08:08

Yep, this is why I was leaning toward the MN system to start with, since it seems like a very powerful and flexible device that does quite a lot of things.

I don’t have much to compare it to, but I was immediately drawn to their modules, they just seem simpler to understand somehow. I don’t know why, something about the layout, the graphics, the colouring, it all seems so … considered.

If you'll be working with found sounds a sampler might be a great addition to this system. ALM Squid or BitBox would be awesome.
33PO

Are you referring to the Make Noise Tape and Microsound machine or the larger rig?

Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into these in a bit more detail.

So many modules out there it’s completely overwhelming.

JimHowell1970 Posted: Sep 8th 2023, 15:06

I'd go with even less stuff to start:

Here's where I would start based on your description:
Keystep - Midi-CV

yes, but not for it's midi-> cv, but because it's got a basic cv sequencer in it... even this could be dropped and use Pams for quantized stepped random loops as a pitch and envelope 'sequencer' to start with... it's more important that you can generate some pitch & gate/envelope information than what it is at least to start with...

Clock - Pam's (for clocks and slow evolving LFO/Random)

yes - & see above! the new Pro version is probably a better buy than the older New version - consider a passive mult and an attenuator module (happy nerding 3* mia, for example) as a good way to make Pams go a bit further.. they're also good investments for the future...

Sound Source - Plaits

yes definitely a sound source, but pretty much anything will do... plaits does have the advantage of having a built in lpg (vca/filter combo) and lots of different sounds it can generate... if you do want plaits.. go for a full size clone and not a micro version... ergonomics are better and it'll be easier to tune!

Filter - to taste (Cinnamon, Ikari, Wasp, lot's of great choices)

if getting plaits... this is a nice to have, but I don't think essential, due to plaits being a voice module in a lot of ways, as well as being an oscillator... 2nd batch of modules unless you go with something other than plaits...

Sampler - BitBox Micro (also has Midi in)

could easily be in a 2nd batch... or "batch 1.5"... maybe, learn to use what you want to sample first... then add in the sampler... could be part of 1st batch, but don't start trying to patch it in before you have a grip on everything else...

External - Somethign to make connecting Mic or 1/4 instrument easy

again... maybe not in the 1st batch... something with envelope follower and gate extractor would be a good idea... befaco instrument interface (adds phantom power, xlr and quite quiet) or doepfer a-119 (noisier, but cheaper)... if you want to sample yourself playing, for instance, guitar, then think about how you are going to do play and control the sampler transports etc at the same time... there are modules to use with footswitches and expression pedals... these may be key to what you want to achieve! so you may want to get one or more of those at the same time as an external input!

Modulation - Stages/Clone for Envelopes and modulation

again maybe batch 2 - use Pams for modulation and envelopes to start with... gert this when you need more modulation...

VCA - Veils/Clone

yes... possibly one of the best investments in eurorack

FX - to taste (Morphagene and Memeophone are very good, but there are TONS of amazing FX)

not essential for learning... but probably a good idea so you can get some different sounds out of the modular from day 1.. personally I'd go for an fx aid pro, though and then add in whatever specialised effect module you want in a later batch... the fx aid pro has 200 different algorithms (covering all sorts of things including reverbs, delays, etc) and has a decent amount of modulation inputs - as well having an internal lfo... it also has a basic, if functional scope (which can be used at the same time as an effect - it uses a different input) which a lot of people seem to like as it helps them visualise waveforms - both audio and cv - and can help understanding... ears are better though... want to know what a modulation source is doing? send it to pitch input of vco and listen to it...

another great thing about the fx aid is that it also has a load of percussion algorithms... so if /when you are using a multi-channel sampler - you have those to sample and build a rhythm track from...

make sure to get the pro though... the others use LED combos to show algorithm, which needs a cheat sheet to figure out & only hold 32 algos an obviously no scope... if you get a subsequent one these are fine... as you can order the algos so the pro is the cheat sheet!

Audio Mixer - Something that interfaces with your other equipment well

you could easily use the veils clone for this to start with... just make sure to start with everything turned down...

So many modules out there it’s completely overwhelming.
-- Darclinc

yes 11k+ of modules is quite a lot... at least to start with sticking to better known/more popular brands can definitely help! and sticking to modules that are 'in production'...

"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia

Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities

Darclinc

JimHowell1970 Posted: Sep 8th 2023, 15:48

Thanks for your quick response, Jim, it is appreciated. Some responses to your posts below:
NP

I think it's a toss up between Tempi and Pams - the interfaces are quite different etc... try to work out which one you'd rather work with through watching videos and reading the manuals - Tempi is more button combination presses and Pams is more menu divey (although quite shallow and easy to learn - all channels have the same menu - but the 'programming' interface is relatively basic - the new screen - on the Pro - is apparantly much better and more informative than just some LEDs)
JimHowell1970

I thought about Pams (as you will have seen from the rack) and have seen mention of the Pro version, but it seems like there’s a fair amount of menu diving involved and people have said it’s a far more complicated unit than Tempi. Remains to be seen which is better for my use case, if I get one at all. I do like the idea of an all MN case though… (I know this is a silly thing to say)

you said it (the idea of a single manufacturer case being silly) & there are a few advantages - but I think the disadvantages outweigh them... part of having a modular is that it's your custom instrument - single manufacturer modulars in some way dilutes this, imo... yes you can patch it how you want and it includes whichever modules you want, but you're still sticking to a single manufacturers design philosophy... not necessarily a bad thing, but, well, not necessarily the best approach...

re Pams menu diving... it's probably the least menu-divey menu I've ever used... select which channel you want to edit, select menu, select parameter, change parameter, done... and remember that once set up you can save it as a preset and reload it... I find this much easier to deal with than remembering button press combinations (Tempi) and Pams is much more powerful in a lot of ways than Tempi... not just triggers/gates, but also modulation, envelopes, quantized stepped random, etc etc...

there'll definitely be a learning curve - take it slowly etc... you'll get there - it's not much different than vcv rack - except you'll have a limited number of module and a limited number of patch cables... and be able to physically control 2 differnt knobs at once...
JimHowell1970

Oddly this is one of the main reasons I want to get hardware, to negate the ‘endless modules’ possibilities and 'endless cables' of VCV. As nice as it is, I think all that choice isn’t necessarily a good thing. At first, perhaps, but certainly not in the long run. I think it lengthens your learning curve and as a result encumbers your ability to make useful stuff, well unless you stick to a handful of modules only. This is essentially what I'm trying to do, by just using a handful of MI modules and some utilities.

the tape and sound machine - don't know - maybe - the rack above - imo too much to start with and very heavily leaning towards too many voices and effects and not enough moudlation and utiliites - see my signature for some hints!
JimHowell1970

I know there’s at least one too many Plaits in there, but I do like the flexibility of it as a module that can be used for percussive as well as traditional voices. Any specific ideas on how to improve that silly rack in more specifically would be greatly appreciated! That's one thing I need to get a better handle on, utilities. I don't know enough about them at all.

see my post above - start slowly and grow organically and slowly...

probably - I use a kick sample in Logic for sync - played from my audio interface (es8) into PNW - works perfectly... I've set up Pams to start/stop/reset based on this clock... I've also heard of people using the run input similarly... I'd suspect that tempi can work the same - you may need some amplification for the clock etc...
JimHowell1970

Thanks, I have as yet been unable to find a definitive answer to this, specifically when it comes to using it with Cubase. It has all sorts of clock sending options, but this isn’t the typical midi clock stuff I'm used to. It’s quite important that I can do this though, since I would like to, whenever I use more rhythmically orientated and delayed sounds, for it to synchronise and play well with my other equipment and arrangements.

all DAWs are similar... the same process will work with Cubase, ProTools, Reason, Ableton, Fruity Loops etc etc... there may be different short cuts to getting it to work... ie apparently you can use a loop in Logic (& probably other DAWs) to reduce the need to copy and paste etc... but once it's done, it's done and no need to fix what is not broken!

depends on the midi->cv interface - I'd do some more research before committing to one - the mutant brain - now made by Erica Synths is reputedly a very good and versatile example - also available as a stand alone unit the cv.ocd - if rack space is an issue
JimHowell1970

This is the thing, I am not sure how this works, at all, and haven’t been able to find much information on it. Is this a module only type of solution, i.e. you need a specific midi to CV module or are there other ways of accomplishing this via some kind of converter box? Or must your midi device specifically have CV out, like the Arturia controllers?

you can use a midi->cv module, or a device with cv outputs... it's up to you...

mutant brain is a multi-channel cv->midi module...

cv.ocd is the exact same thing in an external unit...

"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia

Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities

33PO Posted: Sep 9th 2023, 00:27

Unobtanium BLACK MATHS is a huge benefit to the OEM Make Noise Tape and Microsound Music Machine. Add Pam's + a midi interface and you've got a super powerful (and beautiful) instrument for found sound

IMO there are alternate choices to the included Make Noise modules that would have more utility, but the Make Noise system is very well designed as-is.

If I were to home-brew a similar system I'd make different choices starting with a Tiptop Mantis case:
Include Pam's
Marbles over Woggle
Stages over Maths
Include MISO & Veils
Nebulae v2 over Morphagene
Ikari over Qpas
Happy Nerding FX Aid Pro over Mimeophon
Include BitBox Micro (or Squid Salmple, or Assimil8or)
Include Befaco Instrument Interface v2
Include Befaco Out v3

IMO this would be an awesome foundation for experimentation that can be built upon to taste. Then I'd add an ES9 to have a direct audio interface in the rack and VCV for a hybrid workflow. Then I'd start adding sequencers like Rene and more utilities like a matrix mixer

It's all a very personalized experience and what works well for me may be a nightmare for you, but there are some tried a true rules that are repeated over and over again

Get a bigger case than you think you need and start slow to avoid sticker shock and dissapointment. Expect to swap out modules of similar function to fit your preferences

Darclinc Posted: Sep 12th 2023, 11:41

Yes, I am beginning to realise this more and more. In the overarching larger rack there are a multitude of different manufacturers, I was more referring to the Tape and Microsound Machine as a whole, but I’ve abandoned the idea of using only one manufacturer entirely.

I have watched extensive series on Pam’s Pro, and it’s an amazing piece of technology. I have pretty much completely abandoned the idea of using Tempi because Pam’s Pro is so much more flexible, not just as a clock, but modulation source, sequencer, etc.

you can use a midi->cv module, or a device with cv outputs... it's up to you...
mutant brain is a multi-channel cv->midi module...
cv.ocd is the exact same thing in an external unit...
JimHowell1970

Thanks, I have seen mention of the Mutant Brain a few times, but haven't checked it out as yet.

For what it's worth, I reached out to Make Noise as well, Walker Farrell responded almost immediately. After some back and forth he also suggested a dedicated midi to cv module. As much as I like the Arturia controller, I think this will give me the most flexibility within my current setup and not add any additional equipment into space I really don’t have.

As such I am currently leaning towards this, more or less:

The removal of the existing MN mult leaves enough space for mmMidi, Pam’s Pro and a spare 2HP, which at this point will be used for either a blank, a 2HP VCA or a 2HP buffered mult.

Thoughts on this as a system?

Thanks!

Darclinc Posted: Sep 12th 2023, 12:10

Unobtanium BLACK MATHS is a huge benefit to the OEM Make Noise Tape and Microsound Music Machine. Add Pam's + a midi interface and you've got a super powerful (and beautiful) instrument for found sound
33PO

Thanks, I will check it out for sure.

IMO there are alternate choices to the included Make Noise modules that would have more utility, but the Make Noise system is very well designed as-is.
33PO

Indeed, every time I open up a video there’s another module that looks interesting. You can get lost for years just reading up on this stuff. My objective is to start as soon as possible and that MN system certainly seems well specified and flexible for what it is. Also it is specifically geared towards the sampling and found sound stuff, which I love doing. Morphagene, as I’ve found out, is incredibly flexible and if you’re patient enough to prepare the correct reels for it, I think you can accomplish many interesting things with just it alone.

If I were to home-brew a similar system I'd make different choices starting with a Tiptop Mantis case:
Include Pam's
Marbles over Woggle
Stages over Maths
Include MISO & Veils
Nebulae v2 over Morphagene
Ikari over Qpas
Happy Nerding FX Aid Pro over Mimeophon
Include BitBox Micro (or Squid Salmple, or Assimil8or)
Include Befaco Instrument Interface v2
Include Befaco Out v3
33PO

Thanks, I am not familiar with many of those, but will look into it.

The Expert Sleepers stuff also comes up quite a lot. Especially with the proprietary software they have to route signals around your DAW and to your modular rig. This, I think, will have to wait until I have some kind of handle on the MN system (or similar), should I go ahead with it.

It's all a very personalized experience and what works well for me may be a nightmare for you, but there are some tried a true rules that are repeated over and over again

This is to a degree why, as a start, I am sticking to popular modules and well documented module manufacturers since there’s varying degrees of users with content out there.

Get a bigger case than you think you need and start slow to avoid sticker shock and dissapointment. Expect to swap out modules of similar function to fit your preferences

-- 33PO

As much as this is possibly a reality, I am a bit worried with swapping around modules. As I mentioned in my opening post, there’s a very small modular community here in South Africa. You cannot, as far as I'm aware, buy a single module from any of our audio suppliers (well, except Behringer), no one has them, probably due to cost/supply/demand. There used to be a modular shop here in Cape Town, but they've closed down I believe. As such I think it will be more difficult for me to shift modules that don’t accommodate with me, but we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it.

33PO

33PO Posted: Sep 12th 2023, 14:22

That all makes sense and does make a good argument for a professionally designed and self contained system to start with.

The Make Noise Tape & Microsound Music Machine is a great foundation. You'll find resources on patching the system, along with many resources for patching Maths alone

Adding Pam's and Midi and you've got everything you need for clocked modulations and synchronization with your DAW

You can always expand the system when you're ready

Darclinc Posted: Sep 12th 2023, 15:14

That all makes sense and does make a good argument for a professionally designed and self contained system to start with.

The Make Noise Tape & Microsound Music Machine is a great foundation. You'll find resources on patching the system, along with many resources for patching Maths alone

Adding Pam's and Midi and you've got everything you need for clocked modulations and synchronization with your DAW

You can always expand the system when you're ready
-- 33PO

Thanks, appreciate the input. I have watched every TMMM system video I could lay my hands on, most of them from Make Noise themselves. They do seem to care a lot about their community as well, from what I've seen, which will also be useful down the line if questions arise.

Lastly, would you say it's better, in this scenario, to have that spare 2HP devoted to a mult or to a VCA? My readings suggest that it's definitely VCA, but that brings into question why the original system would've shipped with a mult and NOT more VCA's. Dunno, both are useful.

I must say, I'm not crazy about the idea of small form factor VCA's, but I suspect it might be a loooong while before I can upgrade this case to something with space to accommodate a larger VCA. I guess I could use it without either and see which I want most?

33PO Posted: Sep 12th 2023, 15:35

Plus you get black Maths!

Personally I would keep mults out of the case and leave that 2hp blanked for a future upgrade/module swap.

Tiptop stackables or these hubs are great and take up 0hp
https://www.perfectcircuit.com/lmntl-splitter-hub.html

Darclinc

benscott Posted: Sep 15th 2023, 23:47

My recommendation is to start with a few Doepfer modules as they are affordable, sound great and easy to learn. Make Noise stuff is great and I have tons of it but the icons and graphics are confusing to a beginner and learning basics of modulation, how VCAs and filters work is a lot already if new to modular synthesis.

JimHowell1970

Is the Make Noise Tape and Microsound Machine a good entry level modular system?

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