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In reply to Jim:

Haha I wouldn't say "happy" is the right word :)

well don't buy modules that don't make you happy - wait a while and find the ones that do and buy them instead!!!

Haha yes indeed! To clarify, I think the Neutron seems pretty awesome! It's kind of angry (though I've heard nice flowy things with it too) and my other things don't quite have that kind of anger. It's more B's questionable ethics. One can kinda dance around that some given that the Neutron was built by the synth folks that B acquired? I'm personally not bothered by B making clones of old synths where the patents expired (tons of VSTs do this after all). But there's been a few blatant ripoffs of current products that give me pause. I know some question the quality but I've never had a B piece of equipment go bad on me personally and I've used several, though in terms of quality, there have to be some concessions. One thing I know for at least some synths is the copious use of surface-mount parts - so not easy to repair.

hahaha - the manual is good - but the illustrated supplement is BETTER
Yeah this plus the other panel I found really helped me figure out a lot more about how it works, and yeah I see why it's very popular! Mutable's Stages also caught my eye while looking at Maths as well. Not the same thing but neat to see how flexible some of these modules can really be.

it's a pleasure to help - especially when it's so well appreciated!
Yes indeed so very much appreciated! Really helped me figure out things and avoid some mistakes!

In reply to Lugia:

OK, I looked at the most recent iteration of this, and figured I could do better. After all, those B. 100M modules are honkin' big, and there's definitely ways to make better use of the cab space by adding more functionality by scaling some module sizes back. This take actually includes ALL of the functions you had...and a few new wrinkles.

Hoo boy...

My goodness that is a work of art! Thank you so much! I had no idea some of those modules were even a thing! The S&H in particular I was having a hard time with as I couldn't find one (other than the large B) with built in noise. Heck I even looked at Doepfer so not sure how I missed that!

Explanation is wonderful too! Thank you! I'll have to slowly make my way through all those. So much cool stuff in there, thanks for running through it all too! That power 1HP thing is super neat and I didn't think about ground lift but yeah that could end up being really helpful (especially if I end up putting it opposite my current synths and conventional rack). Such a really cool thing for you to do! I couldn't help but share that with the Mrs but, of course, she asked "how much" and I showed here the price and she just laughed and walked away haha so....well I might have to build that thing over time surely :)

Thanks to you both! Really looking forward to it all!

EDITED Oct 11th 2021, 03:42

I haven't but I do believe MIDI is indeed TTL (5V). This sorta thing kinda reminds me of the PC tracker days when someone (myself included) would load up say config.sys as a wave file and use that to make music :) Could be really neat to try! One thing you will want to consider is that at least DIN MIDI connections use opto-isolators to prevent damage and that might be something you may want to look at (or perhaps use say a cheap USB to MIDI device). It probably won't break anything but I'd be worth taking a look at those circuits. There's several Arduino MIDI boards and things so it should be an easy circuit to track down.

On the note of the suppliment for those that have run into this post wondering about maths, I found it at the following:

https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=93901
https://w2.mat.ucsb.edu/mat276n/resources/systems/CREATE_teachingSynth/manuals/8c_Maths2013-V1.11-printable.pdf

I believe the first one is the original source though the download link is a MediaFire one so if anyone had any qualms about that, the second link is a direct download. The original post has a black background version which I find easier to read though so that's probably the best place to go get it.

EDIT: Oh and here's an alternative panel for folks that might want something a little easier to read. I'm blind as a bat so while I like the aesthetic of the original panel, this one easier on the eyes for me:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/grayscale-maths-v2-grayscale-black-panel

There are a few variants and it's about $25 from grayscale.info.

EDITED Oct 10th 2021, 14:50

Haha I wouldn't say "happy" is the right word :)

Doh! Sorry about the link! I thought the JPG might be easier since I messed up the rack link last time. Here's the MG link:

That's mostly me just playing around with patching and trying to think about where I might want to take things. It's not what I would start with.

Fair point about Maths too. I took another look at it this morning and it does pack a ton into a single module with a lot of flexibility. Solves my "I need more LFOs, oh except when I need an envelope, oh except I really need a VCA/mixer..." problem in one module, plus other crazy things. I intentionally opted not to change the layout in the link above but I think I'll mess around with what maths can replace in a copy of the above and go from there. It looks like there might be an emulation or something similar enough to Maths in VCV that might help me "get it" a bit more.

Also turns out, duh, I was just reading the manual! I thought that's what you meant but the supplement, and duh, I feel silly now. I found the actual one and yes, that helps A LOT!

Thanks again Jim! You've been really helpful along my newbie modular journey!

Hmm so I may have taken a bit of a pivot. I'm about to say the B word :) But this got long, so the I'll put the TLDR at the top. There's some hate for Behringer ("Bearinjure", after all) some definitely justified, some not. But the Neutron. That thing looks pretty cool as a way to get into all this since I could use it with a Eurorack (though I read here about how much that actually costs in HP and will likely not put it in a Eurorack case). So what are folks' thoughts about it here? I dug around and it seemed it's fairly well received despite being from that one company.

The long bit that's unnecessary but is an update to my Eurorack thoughts:

Originally when the Neutron came out I had written it off - I don't know why. But after going pretty crazy with figuring out where I want to go with the rack, I noticed the Neutron has a lot of compelling things built-in that I was trying to sort through (like ENVs, VCAs, VCOs, etc.) while balancing my SSM2044 and effect ideas.

I still definitely want to do all that - particularly because having stereo VCFs seems compelling, at least for the MBSID as it produces some stereo effects (due to not perfectly matched SIDs and things, which I find useful) and some of the other stereo effects (like Black Hole) seem quite useful. But I ended up going maybe a tad off the rails :) Mostly trying to figure out where I want to go beyond the 2044's and ended up with this:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/image/1710868.jpg

Of note I tried to avoid the B 100 modules but I was having some trouble finding things in a form factor I liked at least for something more "conventional". On that note, notice there is no Maths here - I don't think I'm ready for that :) though my band mate seemed to really enjoy the concept when I showed him what it was. I am excited, oddly, about Plaits and similar modules though, which kinda surprised me as I've been on a big analog kick the last few years, but Plaits can do interesting things I don't think I can do with my existing hardware synths, along with all the modulation possibilities. I also liked Erica Synths' PICO VCO since it could double as an LFO and I was finding I kept wanting to mix LFOs into things while playing around with patches.

Anyways while doing all that, I rediscovered Neutron. And now that I kinda have a clue about how all this stuff works, it looks compelling. It has a lot of the things I was trying to put together (filter, BBD, distortion) to use for the SID and other things but has some pretty crazy VCOs with it and could be a base to work from when I build the actual EuroRack as it has a lot of the base modules I would need and would let me be a bit more incremental. Only downside is lack of a stereo filter but this could give me a good taste of how well I'll get along with routing my MBSID (or other things) through an external filter. The Neutron does have a filter that seems like it could fit the SIDs' already gritty sound too. The MIDI support seems a bit lacking but a gate and using the assign to the modwheel or some such can let me trigger the filter and do some programmatic modulation along with clock sync. Not nearly as complete as Mutant Brain (that thing seems sooooo darn flexible) but I think enough to get me what I want. I kinda wonder what the Prophet '08 might sound like through that crazy filter too!

EDITED Oct 10th 2021, 04:48

I was wondering something similar and, along the way, found this nice perhaps more conventional synthy track (only using Plaits):

I'm mulling over using Plaits in my first eurorack build (also with Veils) since it's such a versatile little bugger it seems. I'd eventually like some regular 'ole VCOs too but since I have some integrated analog synths, my thought was I can sort of use their outputs as VCOs for now and Plaits (and Braids for that matter) just seem so darn useful.

yeah, I know the feeling - I'm at about 300 or so and probably need more soon!

Looks at John's modular racks n ModularGrid Hmm yep 300 seems about right haha

Thanks Jim!

I'm leaning towards the Doepfer I think yeah. Their switchmode/linear hybrid PSU is interesting too. I don't have the knowledge to say better or worse than a fully modern switcher (I use a 5V switching regulator for my custom MB6582 power supply and doesn't seem any worse) but is an interesting approach. Moreso I like the wood - even just unstained, though if I got one I'd probably stain it to match my shelves.

Maths. Oh boy! Yeah that gives me a ton to think about and work through. It's a lot to take in, but I never thought about asymmetric LFOs until I started working my way through that PDF (and some videos which helped kinda fit the theory into the end sound). It's quite a beast and yeah turns some of these concepts on their head.

Before I really get into that, first things first, I'll continue messing about with VCAs in VRV. I'd like to see if I can figure out Kraftwerk's cover album among other things. It's a good reminder too that I haven't at all been considering the price of patch cables (namely due to needing more than I thought I would) ;)

Very good points made yep, thanks for the insight!

The LFO thing I had to read a few times haha and I kind of get it, but I think I'll need to play around setting up something like that in VCV before maybe I truly "get it", though the point is well noted! Does make me feel like getting a 6U (2x84) style rack is probably the better option and worth the up front investment. I might outgrow that too but I think it'll take a little longer at least.

Interesting you mention how it makes you "think". I've found modular a bit analogous to film photography in a way. I got back into film a few years back when I, on a whim, bought a film SLR to bring with my DSLR on a trip to Alaska. Turns out my favorite photos were essentially all on film, but I digress. Point is, I was hooked, and one thing it does is make you think differently and more into concepts. Partly because you can't see the immediate results, partly the real per shot cost of film, partly the look, etc. etc.

Full disclosure, I don't have a modular rig yet but even with doing research, reading manuals, watching videos, listening to samples, playing with VCVRack, etc., I'm starting to understand and appreciate more of what goes into integrated synths. It's already made me more creative and focused and has led to some really creative "AHA!" moments. A silly example, I've always been frustrated with doing automation of the volume/pan of channels in Ableton. You can't offset these easily so when I'm doing mixing/mastering work, it's always been a frustration. I mean since I started using Ableton. Well, getting into modular got my out of my rut here and the answer has been in front of me the whole time. Just add a Utility module to the channel and automate THAT. Then the global channel volume/pan I can freely adjust without worry. So simple! I feel silly I hadn't figured it out but honestly if I wasn't thinking more about modular, I might've never connected those dots.

Another example is I realized I could stack CC effects in Renoise (that's what I'm currently using to run my MIDI synths - a sort of experiment over using Ableton). So if I want to control a filter manually, I can do that. But literally yesterday I realized, "oh! I can add an LFO and mix it in to my automation! Oh and I can then modulate the LFO speed!". Then just making patches on the synths themselves - I dunno I just am starting to think a little differently now that I sort of know a bit more about how these all can fit together (and how I can fit them together differently).

It's all been very enlightening and I don't even yet have a eurorack yet! I'm working on that. I'll start simple, perhaps even just the bare minimum to do some effect routing (I really want to use some SSM2044 modules, long story that and I've already rambled on enough). Excited to see how I, hopefully, break out of my creative shell even more once I can mess about with the real thing.

Thank you so much!!! I realize this was a newb question, so I do really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts! Very helpful, particularly because it can be daunting with so many options as a newcommer! Also sorry about the link - I didn't realize it'd break but I've been going a tad crazy with building various options - being a bit all over the map if I'm honest. The one I've been messing with the most if this one which, yeah, I went a tad nuts on (for trying to keep it somewhat simple anyway):

That includes delay and reverb also as well as 2 VCOs and VCAs and, to your point, still has a few tiny modules. The bare minimum goal is still getting an SSM2044 filter to start but the above is one route I was thinking of going. I also pondered what a Eurorack sort of channel strip might look like. Echo and Reverb can be done in my DAW too though I do tend to prefer offboard when I can (I have a Memory Man and find it's often, but not always, preferable to the options I have in Ableton and Renoise). But I also have been realizing, that does make for a mixing/mastering nightmare if there's just too much going on all at once on a channel.

Anyways back to the 2044's, good point about the differences in the chips being a benefit - I had pondered this as well and why I opted to mess around with the above setup as a concept. It just seems like it might require more utilities to do that, but yeah also gives me more options (particularly with the MBSID again since the real SIDs themselves aren't particularly well matched, and that is a good thing). I was indeed thinking of an LFO and a mixer so I can mix between MIDI CV, an env, and the LFO to modulate the cutoff. And perhaps ressonance and, if I opt to get them, modulating the echo rate and such. Multiple LFOs isn't something I was thinking about though, as well as VCAs if just doing effects and it sounds like I'm missing something there? I know the saying goes "you can't have too many VCAs" but I don't yet know quite why - at least for an effect-centric solution? I feel like I'm missing something important here, though I do see that Intelligel 4x VCA can work as a sort of mixer - that's neat!

I'm glad to hear about the MIDI bit as I spent time today looking at this very thing. I think I'm leaning towards the Mutant Brain as a good place to start. The Poly 2 caught my eye too (and like the fact they released a full on hardware tracker - I

Long story short, I really want to have an SSM2044 filter setup. I come from the MidiBox world and the MBSID + 2044 is soooo good but I realized it might be better to go modular rather than using the more integrated approach with MidiBox.

My bare minimum plan was something like this:

A pre-amp / line-level in, out, a few mixers (for summing stereo to mono for the single 2044 and to blend an ENV and LFO), Env/LFO, and Fonitronik DIY 2044 module. I picked that one since, though it's not the most compact, I already have 2044 chips (somewhere around here) from looking at building the MidiBox stuff and can use those. I can forgo the mixers by running a mono signal to the rack via my sound cards as well to save a bit.

Am I missing anything?

I have a stereo build too but notice the word of caution on Modular Addict that 2044's aren't always well matched, but that might be something I expand to in the future, perhaps looking at a full channel strip of sorts. I'd also like to add a few VCOs and VCAs so I have an actual synth rather than just a fancy effect box but starting with the filter gives me options (notably combining it with my MB6582, GameBoy, etc.).