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Again, thanks for the tips.

Question:
Do I need a module to amplify (gain) the audio from my synths if I want to input it into a Eurorack module (i.e. a filter)? The output of my Korg Monologue, for example, is as loud as the headphone out (I tested). How does headphone level volume compare to modular level?

the simple answer is try it and see, it won't break anything, but I suspect that you'll need an input amplifier... NB most of these (& the filters you are looking at) are mono

Off topic
I live near The Hague, in The Netherlands. In the eighties there were two very good and famous music stores here and they had a shop in the center of the city. They were Servaas and Rock Palace. The first closed shop in 1994 (wow! has it been that long? I'm getting F-ing elderly!) the second became Key Music a few years ago and is closed now. Like some of you said: when it became Key Music the personnel that studied or worked in the music biz disappeared and buffons who insult your intelligence were placed behind the counter. Modularsynthesizers.nl oficially resides at Lulofsstraat 55 in The Hague (they're not open to the public). I know where that is, never occured to me though.

There also was a very, very nice store in Rotterdam (not in the center though) that became Key Music and then went bust/disappeared. Went there a few times w/ public transportation to look around and bought stuff there. They had a big classic car in the middle of the store. If you know how to read Dutch (or if Google translate can make something readable out of it) then there's a saddning article of its downwfall after it became Key Music here. See picture below.

I'm afraid that nowadays we're bound to reviewers and sound snippets on Yuotube to "test" and "listen" to musical instruments.

it's a shame that synthesizers.nl has completely closed to the public... they would have been really handy for you!

The Hague to Amsterdam is not that bad a trip on the train, though... neither long or expensive... so a trip to MIDI Amsterdam shouldn't be out of the question - maybe give Tim a call before though, if you want to try out specific modules...

BTW
Luckily AJH Synth modules can be bought in "regular" web shops like Thomann etc. Second hand might still be an option, however: I fear that shipping from outside The Netherlands (even if it's in the EU) is gonna be so expensive that what I save is little. Some sources say I even have to pay VAT (which is a whopping 21% in Holland) if I buy second hand from Great Britan or the US. I might have a look around though in the Dutch synthesizer forum: they sell a lot of stuff 2nd hand there too.

I asked Bax Music about one of the modules that I like. They don't disclose their mail address on their website anymore (deal breaker for me) and I can see that they haven't read the mail, or replied to it, yet.

-- MeneerJansen

it's definitely a possibility that you'll get hit for any combination of import duty, VAT and handling charges, if you shop outside the EU... so stick to EU! and yeah not much point buying a used module if it's only 20€ less than buying it new, especially if you can get free shipping on the new module...

Just FYI, MIDI Amsterdam used to have a habit of listing items online as "in stock" even if they weren't. Don't know if they still do that, but I remember ordering one hard to find item that they had listed on their website as "in stock", I didn't receive a shipping notice after several days so I sent them an email to check on it. Two more days passed with no response so I canceled my order and bought it somewhere else. It was pretty clear at that point that they didn't actually have it in stock. I've heard of other people having similar experiences.
-- adaris

actually I don;t think I've ever bought anything off them online - only in store... always best to phone them...

No Problem

I know what you mean... familiarity etc... but I can tell you from experience that MIDI Amsterdam, The Music House (Utrecht) and ModularSynthesizers.nl are all great to buy from both online and in the case of the first 2 in store - not sure about the music house, as they were threatening to get out of modular (check their website)... but they were great... having spent thousands between them...

the only issue I have with modularsynthesizers.nl (den hague) is that they want you to make an appointment, so I never went there...

If I'm not mistaken then a MiniMoog has sort of the same filter but it appears to, partly, thank it's wonderful sound due to a slightly overdriven input from the oscillator.

something like that - the architecture of a minimoog is iirc: 1-3 vcos -> a cp3 mixer (which has some gain) -> filter -> vca

if you want to get a cp3 like mixer then the AISynthesis Harmonic Mixer is the one I'd go for...

I'll do some research on buying second hand in Holland.

I'd extend to EU in general... on here we have a good marketplace & good and bad transactions threads on the forum (so you can to some extent verify sellers) and on modwiggler you have to have at least 100 posts to create a for sale thread - as I said use PayPal (but not friends and family) and you are insured anyway! but there should also be a local facebook buy/sell group (and if not a EU one) etc

Unfortunatly all physical music stores in the part of Holand where I lve have closed. And when they were still open I wasn't impressed by the people working there in the end. So listening to the mudule in question is almost out of the question.

if it was Key Music - I understand completely!!

midi-clock to trigger - some midi->cv modules have this...

or

use one of the drum tracks as a trigger and just plug it into the modular - may need amplifying!

doepfer amongst others make them - available at most modular stores worldwide... for only a few $/€/£...

although 1hp gaps aren't that bad (screws can get in but patch cables probably can't) and can be helpful with regards to cooling...

I have a vague recollection that the intensity knob on a minimoog is what is normally called resonance on most filter modules... including modules that are modelled after moog filters...

I'm pretty sure that the nifty case does not include a vca... iirc it includes a very basic midi->cv functionality, a dual 1/8" -> 1/4" converter and a multiple (to make a copy of a signal)...

most envelope generators work best with gates... sustain (the S in ADSR) controls really only control the level of sustain not the lehgth - so need the gate to be held open to actually sustain

yes basically the intensity knob is an attenuator which controls the amount of the envelope is applied to the intensity (resonance)

almost always when you see an A in modular it's attenuation, even if the module calls itself an amplifier - VCAs for example - you need to read the module specifications as to how much gain is involved - most VCAs for example are unity gain, and as such are effectively voltage controlled attenuators...

you may or may not need an output module or attenuator to put between the output of the filter and the nifty case output... it really depends what you are sending it to... a lot of modernish mixers and audio interfaces can cope with modular levels - I often used to use a yamaha mg10 and could plug straight into it... if you experience clipping then you do, if you don't you don't!

you will almost definitely want to amplify the output from any other synth though... as this will be at line level which is considerably lower than modular level... and filters will expect modular levels and generally like to be driven a bit... again research, research, research - cheaper ones can be a bit on the noisy side... the doepfer a-119 for instance is known for it's grittiness to put it mildly... the befaco instrument interface is quite quiet... also available as DIY...

if you get an input module with an envelope follower built into it, both the modules I've mentioned do, you may be able to get away without midi-CV or an envelope module - just feed the envelope follower output into the resonance input of the filter...

I wouldn't recommend anything you've listed above though... none of them are really keepers...

I'd suggest doing more research (it's one of the major ways of not spending money in eurorack) to find the actual modules that you really want - this involves google and finding, for example, the best moog-like filter (it'll be a low pass ladder filter with 34db/oct iirc), then going to youtube and watching demos of different ones to work out which you like the best and then preferably going to an actual shop to demo one before you buy, or buying a used one (here and modwiggler are good for that) - don't just buy something because it's cheap - there are reasons why some modules are cheap... doepfer are reasonably inexpensive (only a little bit more expensive than the b-compnay) and they have a good reputation, unlike the b-company...

for example this module https://www.modulargrid.net/e/ajh-synth-minimod-transistor-ladder-filter is supposed to be a very good modular version of a minimoog filter - it may be available at thomann, but there are many other modular specialist stores in the EU & I'd buy one from them if possible, or get a used one... there's a list of modular stores in the EU (and worldwide) that stock eurorack modules and accessories in the stickies of the 1u and 3u subforum on modwiggler... you'll get much better service with any of these than with the bigger box shifters like thomann or musicstore... and prices are generally about the same...

if you buy used and then decide to sell it it may only cost you the postage (as you'll probably be able to sell it for a similar price to what you paid for it) - most modules will depreciate by 20-30% once they are out of the store, cheaper ones may be very difficult to resell for even 50%... same goes for cases... if you do buy used from a private seller on a website - make sure not to use friends and family (and take the small hit on cost)

this module may also be worth looking at: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/doepfer-a-120

same for envelope generators - you probably want an ADSR type...

most of us suffer from GAS from time to time - although it gets less and less... there's a reason that they call eurorack eurocrack...

EDITED Aug 6th 2023, 18:21

I'm building my first Eurorack system as well, after some expience with semi-modular synths and VCV rack etc.

I was personally looking at the Fully Wired Electronics Transistor Ladder Filter https://www.modulargrid.net/e/fully-wired-electronics-transistor-ladder-filter. I could be making the completely wrong choice but I quite like the sound of it, with it being a ladder filter and all. Plus (Again I could be completely wrong) but it doesnt seem overly expenisive if I don't like it in the end. From what I've seen I assume it self-oscillates.
-- timeandspace

seems inexpensive - this in itself is not a good reason to buy it though... that you like the sound of it is, though!

the description states that it tracks v/oct - which might indicate that it self resonates. or might just mean that the cut-off frequency is calibrated to v/oct... I'd contact the manufacturer for clarification before buying, if I were you, if this is important to you

by that I mean - you only want to use 1 wall socket - as opposed to trying to find 2 spare scokets wherever you have dragged your rack to... so a power strip would also be a viable option... as it only uses 1 socket...

But let me get this thing clear: are you using a kick sample as a trigger to clock ("clock in" input to module)? I could probably do something similar into Pams New Workout... Thanks again!

-- Matara

yes...

you'll probably need to mess with the volume of the audio channel or pams will not recognise it (about 30-49% works for me in logic using an es-8 for output)...

paste the kick sample (I got mine from the make noise site, not sure it's still there) at whatever frequency you need it for as long as you need it (I have it at 4ppqn, iirc, ie every 16th note) for 120 bars or so) and then save that as a template...

set pams to run at the same ppqn with external clock, I also set it to run/stop on receipt of clock...

works for me... should work for you!

yes but are you trying to avoid 2 wall warts to avoid using 2 sockets?

what's wrong with using a power strip and 2 wall warts? much easier... and potentially safer

Jim!

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this incredibly resourceful reply, and educate me on some badly overlooked basics! Truly, I've learned so many things from your message.

NP - hopefully this will be just as educational/useful!!!

something I should have mentioned earlier - I'm not convinced that polyphony or paraphony in modular is a particularly good use case - it tends to be very expensive compared to what can be achieved with a fixed architecture synth - and I think that modular really only gets interesting if you're creating complex or unusual patches that can't be achieved with a fixed architecture synth - saying that getting a poly synth that has good sine waves may be difficult and/or expensive...

I've reworked a (hopefully) improved setup here:

I'n mot convinced it's any better or worse, just different & I'm not convinced that you did a huge amount of homework before re-posting - 2 reasons for this - the time it took and that with a little bit of googling I found out that the uVCFs might have tuning problem - due to no temperature compensation - so they are likely to drift, even after initial stabilisation... as @Plieuwski suggests doepfer a-110-4s may be the answer... and are significantly cheaper than the uVCFs... at least here in the UK you can buy an a-110-4 and a doepfer filter for about the same price as an intellijel uVCF

(if you have the time and patience to check it out – I don't want to stretch it here.) In a nutshell (or rather, a 500€ case…):

• there's the Mutant better MIDI input you suggested

good

• just beneath it are an offset module and a Disting module (the idea is to be able to generate parrallel chords from a keyboard, which, come to think of it, is the main/only way I currently use "chords" in my practice). Disting seems nifty, but maybe something cheaper would work just as well for this application.

can you explain your intended use of the disting, with regards to this? as a second offset/precision adder? I'm not convinced! not to say that the disting isn't a useful module...

as for the offset - I wouldn't use it like this - I would tune the 'oscillators' to the correct intervals or use precision adders and precise voltages - but I almost definitely wouldn't play chords like this (see below) - I'd use the offset for shifting modulation... but see below!

plus I'd buy a better one - by that I mean multiple channels - happy nerding 3*mia, for example...

• OSCs are now all resonance filters, which is a great, elegant solution, and I love it. I find I really love sines and at that point, don't care much about other waveforms in terms of timbre

you might not care about other waveforms now, but that doesn't mean you won't in the future, so the option of other waveforms is a bonus... plus see above re tuning stability... I'd go for the a-110-4s after doing a little more research on the subject myself!

• there's the Intellijel quad cascading VCA/mixer, which should allow for a number of mixing uses?

yes but you'll undoubtedly need more mixing as well as vcas - they are fundamental synthesis building blocks... (see below)

• then an apparently quite clear, clean multifilter

so paraphony only!!! for true polyphony you need a filter per voice... (see below)

• a basic quad LFO

I'd want something more fully featured than this... batumi, which has multiple waveshapes etc!!!

• I followed your perceptive advice and ditched the ring mod. Instead I guess I could FM the VCFs sines for instance?

standard practice for fm is to use another vco... so I'd want at least 2 oscillators per voice... for both fm or slight de-tuning (which makes them fatter)

• then a MATHS module which seems to be so convenient for all sorts of operations (including VC envelope generation and many other fun things)

it's a good start - especially when the 'maths illustrated supplement' is worked through multiple times - thinking what, why, how... you'll almost definitely want to duplicate most of the functionality that it offers - so that you can use maths for more complex things

• and a noise source which I suppose would come handy for all sorts of things

yes but again massively benefits if you have more mixers - mixing a small amount of noise into a voice or modulation is a good idea - you almost definitely do not need this to start with, though...

Your signature is truly a well of wisdom… not joking here. I think I'll post-it somewhere.

yeah - I should get some posters printed and sell them

Is there anything you would think is redundant? Sorely missing?

I don't think that there's anything particularly 'redundant' although I dislike that concept in modular - something's only redundant if you don't use it - and personally I don't think there's enough here for that to happen - if you want polyphony, or even paraphony, you'll need duplicates of modules...

saying that I don't think I'd buy the offset module just yet - channels 2 & 3 of maths will cover this for now - when you get into self patching maths to do interesting things and you find yourself reaching for more modulation/offset/attenuversion/mixing/logic then it's time to add those, until then I wouldn't bother...

stuff that's missing:

a mult - you'll need a way of copying the single v/oct signal from the sq-1 to multiple destinations - you'll probably want more of these in the future - and you may find that you need buffered mults - but passive will do for now (& this may be stackcables or headphone splitter) - I'd get one of these to start with

more mixers - just like they say "you can never have too many vcas", I think you can never have too many mixers... sub-mixers (for mixing wave forms and/or oscillators), matrix mixers (more complex modulation, send/return, feedback patching etc) and end of chain mixers are all incredibly useful...

I probably said this before - but I'd also add a multi-fx like an fx aid pro - it'll give you a lot of options - reverb and delay are really useful... personally I'd want at least delay and reverb - but you may have other ways of applying these!

I'm still thinking about the sequencing part of operations. I guess I could either use that cheap SQ1 with the parrallel chord thing (this covers most of my uses of chords really), or plug in a keyboard. For other, more 'experimental' play, maybe just use a square wave from one of the LFOs to trig something on MATHS for instance?
Then maybe invest in a more sophisticated sequencer when I feel the need for it.

this is definitely 1 area to keep thinking about...

experimental:

triggering maths will cycle the waveform - which could be used as a source of cv for pitch, with the addition of a quantizer... but it will be repetitive, up/down only - you might want to mix in a tiny bit of noise to this before quantizing...

for the parallel chord:

put in place a plan for order of purchase - don't buy everything at once...

buy a case (I like the mantis), a single voice and the sq1 and as much of the utilties as you can (at a minimum a mult and the vca) and a modulation source and a dual envelope generator (adsr if that's what you want)

for that single voice I would buy 2 a-110-4s and a doepfer filter - possibly the A-106-5 SEM or one of the ladder filters...have alisten to the filters on line - it'll give you an idea - search for comparisions of doepfer filters on youtube

I'd also be realy tempted to add in a trigger/gate delay especially if you can find a voltage controlled one - this will allow you to experiment with phasing by patching a slight delay into the triggering of one of the envelopes

this will allow you to "proof of concept" a voice before commiting to buying multiples... both in using multiple vcos for a voice (for both out of phase and detuned oscillators as well as some fm/am etc) and also experiment with sending an interval (the mix of 2 differently tuned oscillators) to a filter to see if you like the results...

you may find that you don't like some aspect of the voice and can easily change something out at this point before continuing...

once you are happy with the voice you have then add a second... this maybe just another filter, or it may be a filter and a couple of vcos and a mixer and another mult for example...

at this point you could then add in the midi -> cv module an/or a more complex multi-channel sequencer - the sq-1 can always be used as a modulation source, or for transposing the other sequencer, or for sequencing another voice (bassline/lead etc)

I'd build this up one voice at a time and I'd aim for 4 voices - why 4 and not 3? so you can go past basic 3 note triads - either by adding in a bass note or by extending the chord (7ths, 9ths etc) - personally I'd probably only use parallel chords for "power" chords - root and 5th and the root duplicated either above or below - or to do things with major/minor chords - for ambiguity - but I guess this really depends on what else is going on!!

my 'end game' here (for polyphony) would be 4 identical voices, each with a pair of vcos, a simple mixer (maybe more than 1 - I like ones based on the moog cp-1 - for example AISynthsis' Harmonic Mixer), a dual envelope generator, a trigger/gate delay, a filter and at least one vca channel (probably more like 4 per voice - vco, filter, modulation etc) and some shared modulation (including a matrix mixer)

things I'd also consider adding in would be more modulation, waveshapers & lpgs (towards a more west-coast ideology), a different bank of filters, some simple effects - patching effects in at different pounts in the path rather than just the end of chain can be intersting!

And lastly, would you have any good personal book recommendation to go through the basics of modular synthesis?

there's patch and tweak which is an actual book... it's good but in lots of ways it's a coffee table picture book...

the stickies at the top of the 1u&3u subforum on modwiggler are good...

for more advanced synthesis techniques the sound on sound magazine 'synth secrets' series - available online for free is dificult to beat.. but is very 'east coast' centric iirc - ie this is how you mimic this instrument with a synth - which I'm not that big a fan of tbh - but I did get at leasat half way through the series - iirc there's 50+ articles - when I read it...

there are also a number of threads about more advanced books both on synthesis in genersl and modular synthesis in particular (Allen Strange, Pelsea and X without Y, for example) in the 1u & 3u and modular synthesis general discussion subforums of modwiggler

again - hope this helps!! good luck - more questions? keep them coming...

EDITED Aug 6th 2023, 10:59

please mark your rack as public and post the url - fuzzy jpgs aren't that helpful to us helping you - no click through or mouse over - and with 11k+ modules available, no one knows all of them!!

but for starters:

sq-1: probably not the best sequencer for sequencing chords... only 1 note at a time... so no ability to go from a major chord to a minor chord, for example... don't just buy modules/things because they are cheap buy the modules you really want/need after extensive research and thinking about how you will actually use them in practice, otherwise you'll be swapping modules in and out until you do find the ones you want/need - which is a false economy - which leads me to...

oscillators: whilst these may seem like a great idea, I think you'll have issues with them... they are tiny and use trimmers and as such are probably not going to be great for precise tuning & having them next to each other will make them almost impossible to adjust when patched - so don't rack them next to each other! - remember that in eurorack 1hp is just 1/5" (5.08mm)...

a lot of people are shocked by how small modules are once they've actually seen them! also pay attention to module and case depth... not all modules fit in all cases - 2hp modules can be quite deep - as the pcbs are perpendicular to the panels - and can be quite fragile

whilst in general doepfer make some fantastic modules, especially their utilities and filters - their midi modules are best described as not great - if you need a midi module I'd go for something else, probably with more channels - if you want chords you'll probably want at least 4 channels - mutant brain might be a better option - & it has extra gate/trigger outputs so you can use midi clock for example, if you wish - but I'd seriously think about how you're going to sequence your modular - pick either midi or cv and then get a module that actually fulfills your needs (I don't think either of the options you've picked do!)

newbie question: if I don't plug in an external sequencer, do I need a clock? I worry about the sequencer being quite constraining on what I can do with this

it depends - do you want to have modulation etc that's in sync with the notes that are being played? the sq-1 is quite a basic sequencer... especially if you want to play chords! find one that's more advanced - preferably with enough channels to sequence all your voices independantly... I like the erica black sequencer... it has 4 channels and each channel has quantized pitch/gates/modulation, has an internal clock, each channel can run at a different division/multiplication, and a clock out for sending to other modules!

newbie question #2: do I miss some critical part of a functional system? A mixer, maybe? A second VCA? Also, not sure about how these 3 oscs all feed into the ADSR? (hence the mult. I don't know if that's how it's done.)

mixers are incredibly useful, you'll likely want a few of them - not just for audio, but also for combining modulation... same with vcas - useful for both audio and cv - again you'll probably want at least a few - I'd go for a quad cascading vca - such as a veils clone...

vco outs go to vca inputs - envelopes (ie an adsr) go to the cv inputs of the vca so they can open and close it - sounds like some further reading on the basics of modular synthesis is a good idea - the stickies at the top of the 1u & 3u subforum on modwiggler are a great place to start!!!

The oscs are all sines. I picked these because they're apparently quite pure, they sound great in the videos and are not too expensive, but they might not be ideal in terms of ergonomics/fine tuning and/or functionality?

if you replace might with WILL in the sentance above you will be correct!

buy vcos that are bigger, have proper knobs on them and not trimmers (especially for pitch - tuning!!) and preferably with more functionality - multiple waveforms are a good idea (options/verstiltiy), as are things like pwm... if you seriously want only very pure sines, you might find you are better off using resonant filters as sound sources - do more research!!!

there are plenty of good inexpensive(ish) vcos about... probably a bit more expensive than those 2hp ones, but not necessarily that much more! but you may end up wanting a simple mixer for each - so you can combine waveforms...

I've been thinking of replacing them with the Ensemble Osc from 4ms but I'm worried about it being a bit too ready to use/prescriptive. I like the idea of something more basic. Your thoughts will be apreciated.

ah the debate of 'modular synthesis' vs 'synthesis with modules'.... both are valid, as are all points in between... but to start I'd recommend more basic modules - making up a single voice and learning how to use that inside and out before adding more voices... at which point a module like the ensemble oscillator, might be a good option - make sure you understand how to sequence it properly - iirc you really want more than 1 sequencer channel - either to sequence root and chord type, or to send it multiple pitches to play at once - also I'm not convinced that it will do full polyphony - paraphony yes, but polyphony??? again do your research!

Chose this ring mod that apparently sounds quite clear. It might go to make room for something else. Any suggestion?

why a ring mod? doesn't fit with your pure/clean aesthetic... maybe a multi-function effect module would be better... fx aid pro (so you can see what you are adoing) would be my pick!

I'm very much into phasing tones, combination tones, Shepards. Any idea/tip about this?

phasing - as in the effect? get a phaser - the new doepfer one looks good
combining tones - mixer &/or cascading vca
shepard tones - I'm sure you can patch it but there's at least one module that has this built in expert sleepers general CV - which is a great and undervalued module... despite it's tiny screen!

Also, any tips about resonating filters? A second filter? Something else?

if you want polyphony rather than paraphony - you'll want a filter per oscillator (& possibly the same filter for each) - spend some time fiinding the one(s) you like... even if you only want paraphony, multiple filters will give you more choices/versatility, but they can come later...

I'd also recommend taking a look at my signature file & spending a fair amount of time thinking about what it says - the formula is a hint at (loosely) getting the most versatility from a modular synthesizer for the least expense...

I hope this has all been helpful...

EDITED Aug 5th 2023, 11:17

have you looked at the mutant brain (in rack version of cv.ocd) - was hexinverter, now being made by erica synths... it has the 4 cv/gate pairs you want + more gate outputs - so you can use a midi clock for syncing to the computer...

I use a kick sample on an audio track in logic, personally - this will always be 'tighter' than midi clock, due to Operating System priorities, but if you don't use any other software on the computer at the same time and disconnect from wifi etc then you should be fine

go to the home page, scroll down, click on the 'about unicorn accounts' link, scroll down and you should see a paypal button - click on that...

sounds like it's time for, the inevitable, case no. 2 then!
-- JimHowell1970

No way! :) I feel like even this sized case us too big for my Very Small Brain to handle.

-- ModLifeCrisis

hahahaha, it's tiny!!!

I have about 1800hp of cases...

Thanks for your replies everyone. The FX Aid Pro looks good but is 14hp (I think), so too big for me. I suppose I could chuck my ALM SBG in there and use a pedal but I do like the idea of everything being in the case. I'm also considering the Doepfer Spring but I'm not sure whether it would fit in the Make Noise case once it is wired up.
-- ModLifeCrisis

sounds like it's time for, the inevitable, case no. 2 then!

Hi - thanks for your reply. People do amazing things with the BIA but it's not the sort of sound I'm after. I'm aiming for dreamy soundscapes that can modulate and evolve, which is why I was considering the MFX. Thinking about it, the reverb from Noise Engineering might be another option...

-- ModLifeCrisis

I'm not sure that anyone would associtate Noise Engineering with dreamy soundscapes - it can be done, from what I've heard, but it wouldn't be my first point of call...

I own 1 NE modules, the zularic repetitor (which I think is an excellent module) and am currently wearing an NE t-shirt

I'd also look at the fx aid pro as an alternative to the MFX (latest firmware has a scope) and has way more algoritms - claims to include a tuner - but it seems to be more like a pitch to tune to - I use a pedal tuner myself, but a phone app would be just as good (or most DAWS include them)

I would go with the fx section in the MPC. Get to know theyr sounds and capabilities and then get something with a difrent sound colour and posibilities for your rack.
-- Niemandsland

Initially this makes a lot of sense..

really the best reasons to go for in rack effects are - it must be in the rack (portability or OCD issues) or you must have mdulation via CV (woozy modulated reverbs and delays can sound interesting) - or because a specific effect is only available in eurorack format (probably not that many) or you want to experiment with unusual signal paths (effects early in the signal chain before, for example, filtering or waveshaping/folding etc)

but all those can come later...

hi Blizz,

I would like to say you have all you need to start with the miniBrute and the MPC. Get to know them, learn how they vould work together before you start filling up your rack. If you know what the MPC and Minibrut can do and how they interact you know what you might want from the modules in your rack. Keep the learning curve small it always helped me in my creativity.

my two cents Niemandsland
-- Niemandsland

I'd very strongly agree with @Niemansland here...

there are a few "issues" with the modules that you've selected - too many (& too large - Magneto - imo) fx for this case... No mixing solutions... not enough modulation... a turing machine, but no quantizer (if you want to use a turing machine for pitch you will need a quantizer to make it play in a particular scale - tune the oscillator to get the set the root note)

when you are ready to commit money to modular - I'd take a look at the hints on how to get the most versatility for the least expenditure in my signature and have a good think about what it's telling you... then try again regarding what modules you want to put in your rack and those you need to support them...

If the thread title is accurate, I would recommend that you do not go into debt for this setup.
Jim's advice mirrors my own. You will be incredibly unhappy with all of those tiny modules side by side, for many reasons.
I would recommend that you revisit a LOT of the beginner posts in this forum, read a LOT of manuals, and watch a LOT of tutorials before investing any money in this.
Have fun and good luck!
-- farkas

+1000

so I planned to make some rails for the 1u in that area and I didn't know I'd need an adapter for power :( if that's what you meant.

no I couldn't tell if you meant it to be a rackbrute with the associated rack wart or a 7u where you'd inadvertantly added an arturia rack wart (that's not available separately)

it sounds like you want to add a 1u row on top of a rackbrute - sounds like a bad idea to me involving disfiguring the rackbrute - either get a 7u rack or drop the 1u

for that condensed area I tried to arange it where i could kinda get to the knobs, I wasn't worried too much bc itll be used for rhythmic noise where modulation would just be re patching. tho the 3 actuator would be a problem

the 'condensed' area is way too crowded - sooner or later, you will hate it

the noise on the intellijel noise tools just seemed like an extra for why its there

partly this was my mistake the paratek noise module looked like 2 modules - in itself, it seems way too crowded - like the designer was having a competition with himself how to get as many knobs, switches and jacks in 8hp as possible

as for the vcas I assumed I could just substitute it with lpgs and bc power I'm still new at this

only if you only want to use them for audio - vcas are really useful for cv too - seriously, do yourself a favour & get a quad cascading vca - veils clone or intellijel etc etc

so for mixing I was going o coast, bia, clouds ect into the 3 mix (to set and forget) - cinnamon filter - mkc8 - minibrute - deluge for this ex. I wanted ambient chords under one filter while Saturn, ect goes straight to mkc8

I think you'll regret the mixing solution

what's the 3 mix? the synthrotek attenuator???

are you expecting o-coast, mia and clouds to give you ambient chords??? not my idea of ambient or chords...

with my setup I don't plan to go outside 6u and the o coast is only a staple bc I've scuffed it up a bit
and thanks for commenting I really needed the perspective.
-- exmpl

we all say that to start with... just a little 6u (or whatever) - then it's the wafer thin mint and it explodes all over the place...

the rackbrute case does not have 1u and the power supply is not sold separately...

better to put the 1u modules in the 1u rail than in an adapter - so you have more space for 3u - just move the disting ex to be near the bigger screen, but I'd only buy that if you need it...

racking semis is a waste of rack space and power...

too many small modules too close together... you are trying to do too much in too small a space... bigger case and bigger modules or just fewer bigger modules - the shitty ergonomics of so many 2hp modules and trimmers instead of pots will make it unplayable... remember 1hp = 1/5" (4.08mm)

do some research on the guy behind synthrotek before buying their modules...

why do you think you need 2 noise sources?

why are there no vcas?

how are you mixing - the deluge, minibrute 2s, the output of the rackbrute6u and the o coast?

take a look at the hints in my signature and spend a considerable time thinking about them... they are a guide to getting the most versatile modular for the least cash...

still would like a dedicated delay so will probably chuck that in.
-- Delicatessen

Remember that you can flash the Ruina Versio to several different delay modules, plus you have Mimeophon and the FX Aid and Disting, which both have several great delays. I still think you might be trying to double (or triple) up on too many functions for the space you have available to start. Again, it's your synth. I just know what did and didn't work for me. I made a lot of the noob mistakes.
Hope you have fun building your synth!

-- farkas

I used the tape delay in disting for ages - and still do, even though I've also got a magneto now - & 2 fx aids ... it's very good for what it is...

I think we all make newb mistakes... but asking questions etc on here and/or other forums can reduce and mitigate them quite a bit...

Also starting slowly (for example getting just the melodic voice to start) and learning how to patch that etc before starting on the percussion side may help...

as @farkas said... hope you have fun building (and playing) your synth!

Alright, here's what I would do based upon your initial guidance of a techno focused drum machine with a mono voice, and my own experience. Above all, you will need to just decide on a couple modules at first and figure out what you are really missing, then go from there. I'm just a dude on the internet, so it's ultimately your decision. These are just some ideas to think about.
First, Three Sisters is not exactly unobtanium, but in my opinion it is overpriced due to scarcity. In its place, I would recommnd the FSS Timbral Sculptor as a multimode filter that includes a wavefolder. It's awesome. Check out DivKid's demo video.
Second, I am not a fan of Maths or Disting. Sold both and never looked back, but they are good for learning purposes. I've never subscribed to Jim's "modular synthesis vs. synthesis with modules" argument regarding Maths. The Moog System 55 and Roland System 700 didn't have Maths... Was that not modular synthesis? Anyway, Quadrax with the QX expander should serve your function generator and logic needs. Add Pam's Pro Workout for all sorts of clocked, random, and quantized waves, and that's a pretty powerful combo. Pam's is the brain that locks everything together. You can get weird swing and off-time gates with the Quadrax/QX combo, but most techno is going to require a pretty tight groove.
I mentioned Vortices in my previous comment. This will give you mono and stereo channels, CV control over mixing (something you were missing in your previous iterations), and clickless muting of channels if you track down the V-Mutes expander. You will want channel muting if you are making techno.
Plaits is so versatile. For a small rack, I think you will find it incredibly valuable. It can serve as a mono synth voice, chord generator, percussion, noise, jack of all trades. Add that to BIA and a good kick drum, and you are in business.
I would ditch the Orion phaser. I think there are better uses of that space, and both Disting and the FX Aid XL have phaser algorithms if you think you'll be doing a lot of phasing (the FSS Timbral Sculptor also does a convincing phaser, btw).
Some of the stuff you chose might be a good purchase once your rack expands beyond 208hp (and, oh yes, it will expand beyond 208hp), like the Compare 2 and compressors. As it is now, you want to get the most out of your rack without sacrificing playability. All of those little 2hp and 4hp modules that you are trying to squeeze in will be a source of frustration. You won't be able to get your hands in between the mess of cables.
Finally, you still have 14hp to play with and I saved you $1100.

Have fun and good luck!
-- farkas

Excellent advice in general from @farkas once again...

I'd upgrade the fx aid xl to a pro... I have both and the ability to actualy see what you are doing on the pro (instead of having to memorise which algo is where or refer to a paper or pdf cheat sheet constantly) is priceless... I'm going to set mine up so that the 1st 32 algos in my pro are the same as the 32 algos in my xl, so I have an in rack cheat sheet... plus it has a very, very basic single channel scope built in

I've never subscribed to Jim's "modular synthesis vs. synthesis with modules" argument regarding Maths. The Moog System 55 and Roland System 700 didn't have Maths... Was that not modular synthesis?

-- farkas

it's not really got anything to do with maths - although maths is a good example of a few fundamental building blocks under a single panel that can be patched to do more than the individual building blocks can - it's got to do with fundamental building blocks of synthesis as modules rather than big shiny expensive synth modules that do all these things for you without any need for understanding of what's going on beneath the panel... so moog system 55 and roland system 700 - collections of fundamental building blocks of synthesis that need to be patched together to get something out of them - definitely fall in the 'modular synthesis' camp... whereas a rack that consists of only say a couple of semi modulars, a mixer and an effects module - is definitely in the 'synthesis with modules' camp...

vc cross-faders and vc panners - which I don't use often - are a good example - they can both be patched easily using a couple of channels of a cascading vca, an lfo and a few basic utility modules... buying vc cross-faders and panners (is more 'synthesis with modules' whereas patching them up when you need them is more 'modular synthesis'

neither is right or wrong, just different, & I suspect a lot, if not most, of us fall somewhere in the middle - I definitely do - in that I have both modules that are fundamental building blocks of synthesis and a few 'voice modules' - deckard's voice for example - where I don't have to patch anything into it, other than pitch and gate because someone else designed the voice for me - I don't have a complex oscillator - but I can patch multiple different ones from various vcos and utilities etc etc

the argument for maths is more: it's a collection of fundamental building blocks under a single panel, which in themselves are useful to have and it has a lot of educational material - videos and pdfs (particularly the 'maths illustrated supplement') - that when used properly (thinking about what, why, how and not just patching blindly) can give the user an introduction to patch-programming, which when taken forwards and applied across the modular as a whole can massively benefit their patching in general

EDITED Jul 20th 2023, 13:30

great advice from @farkas, too!!!

re compressors: to a large extent if you arrange and mix things properly you may find you don't need them - apart from maybe side-chaining for kick - but even then use a vca - it's more versatile & modular - just make sure you get the right vca (like a veils clone) that actually amplifies as well as attenuates

arrangement and filtering can go a long way though - low pass filter the kick with the resonance where you want the fundamental to sit - make sure the bass line is a higher frequency than the kick and/or high pass filter the bass so they're not eating up the same frequency space... a much more modular and musical approach approach!

I also think that ghost is perhaps overkill (& I rarely use that word for modular) for just processing a mono kick and is large and stereo.... possibly this is better for end of chain fx.. or replacing for something else...

great link there @Sweelinck!

Hi all, after spending the past few years admiring modular from distance, I feel like its time to take the plunge with my own. Before I pull the trigger on a few modules to start myself off (already have the case, the intellijel one) I'd like some advice please if this is a sensible rack set up and if I need to add more modules to eke out the most functionality from a small space?

what does your extensive reaseach tell you? - especially relating to newbie racks and particularly drum oriented modular...

general advice is don't do drums in modular... it's very expensive and way more complicated than an external drum machine!

& how are you intending to sequence the drums? if just midi (using the planned midi->cv module) and the clock divider they'll potentially be very boring!

Idea here is a techno focused drum machine plus one monosynth (which doubles up as a percussion generator). I'm interested in drones and textures as well, so hoping to use the mimeophon to get some pads going.

hmmm... maybe a stereo filter for the morphagene?

I'm concerned I dont have enough modulation sources and VCAs, however im thinking as the monosynth will be the main thing to modulate should be ok? I'm also worried about having zadar as my main envelope generator, and if that's limiting?

don't you want to modulate your drums too, stop them being static and boring? and what about the fx, do they not deserve at least some modulation - and attenuation for that modulation - full range modulation often sounds crap - whereas a tiny bit can go a long way!!!

the vca you've specified is linear so best suited for modulation and not audio - whilst this is not necessarily a bad thing, and can be worked around using exponential envelope generators - do the envelope/function generators supply enough in the way of exponential envelopes to support this in the way that you want! zadar is a great envelope generator, but it's not necessarily as immediate as a lot of others...

generally if you don't think you have enough of something - then you probably don't...

I also wonder if i need a logic module in there, but dont know if that will be useful for this setup

compare2 is a logic module!!! these are very useful for rhythmic 'programming' - I'd want a bernoulli gate (probabalistic dropping/switching of gates/triggers), a burst generator, a sequential switch and an or combiner too - at the very least to help create interesting rhythms - as well as to improve other patchiung possibilities

i've gone for contour 1 + compare 2 instead of Maths. Would like to add another contour and select further down the line. However i'm ondering if these replacements will be ok or should i rejig the whole set up.

Maths is a great module if you are interested in 'modular synthesis' - as opposed to 'synthesis with modules' - which your rack plan as is points towards - it is way more than the sum of it's parts - see the 'maths illustrated supplement' for more details on patch programming - but I'd always recommend getting at least some of the component parts of maths as well as maths - utilities are probably the most important key to patching in modular synthesis - as they exponentlially add to patching possibilities! you say you've replaced Maths with contour1 and compare2, but where are the attenuverters and offsets

have you thought seriously about mixing? I wouldn't just want 2 stereo mixers for mixing drums, a monophonic voice and a morphagene plus fx - how are you going to pan your mono sound sources in the stereo field? how are you going to sub-mix drums before sending to effects?

and whilst I applaud the idea of a matrix mixer... it's the shiniest, most complicated and least usable example I can think of... just get a basic one so that you can learn how to use one - and not spend ages searching for the dongles, you've inevitably dropped on the floor... great module in theory... but I'm not convinced of the practicality of it, at all! definitely not a beginner module

see my signature for some hints on improving versatility whilst reducing expense!

I have planned my own rack which is linked below, don't take the following paragraph as a request for someone to make me a rack.

I'm not going to do that it's too much effort!!!

Hello. I recently discovered modular and I'm now planning my first rack. I want something to do everything for making some form of psytrance while mostly away from the computer.

this is possibly leaning towards the folly of trying to do too much in too small a space...

I've decided on the requirements of ≥2 seperate synth voices, in this case the east beast and west pest because they are cheap and supposedly pretty good, as well as a kick and hats and a way to sequence them, which I decided on the peaks and ugrids modules. I am planning on using a black noise "voltage processor" as a dual vca as I've heared that vca's are important and this was the best fitting module I could find. The cellz and chipz would not cost me too much and add more functionallity, especially with the cellz to have an evolving sequencer when paired with 2 lfo's (kind of, as far as I know it can work like that.)

no snare???

doing things in modular 'because they are cheap' can be counter productive and costy more money in the long term - don't buy modules (or semi-modulars) because they are cheap unless you like the sounds you can get from them and like the interfaces - I can't comment on the semis other than re racking them in a eurorack case is kind of a waste of money, when they already come with cases and power... the chipz & cellz modules often turn up on used sites and are quitte difficult to sell from what I can gather, despite the low prices...

Speaking of which, due to the low price and ability to sync with my computer, I want to use 2 "NiftyCases." Using the "NiftyBundle," I can get 2 extra oscillators, a lfo, and a sequencer for just $70 usd more.

see above plus will the midi implementation on 2 nifty cases actually cover this well??? I've heard the midi implementation is not that good... btw you can sync to a computer using a kick sample on an audio track in your DAW, as long as you have a spare output and the appropriate cable... remember audio is much more stable than midi in all computer OSs as it has a much higher priority, so won't be interrupted as much by background OS tasks

I would be getting the top half of the rack that I made, minus the Erica Synths PICO Out,

do you need an output module? why do you think this? what are you plugging into? the nifty cases have 1/4" outs already... some simple attenuation before hitting these is probably all that's needed to connect to a mixer or audio interface

first as I get the money for the second half. Everything that can't be found on sweetwater or perfectcircuit will be bought on reverb. The only issue that I found in this rack is the depth of the A-199 by doepfer, which I would solve by desoldering the connection ports to the actual spring part of the module that are found at the bottom of the eurorack portion. It's just a simple fix to move the ports and I would go through this trouble because I heard this module is one of the best effects and worth it when just starting out. If it can't be done then I am open to other ideas.

reverb is expensive - try here (non-reverb listings, facebook marketplace & buy/sell groups for modular, modwiggler, reddt - r/modular has a monthly for sale thread)

I'd buy a deeper case or at a push m3 standoffs (& electrical tape) instead of desoldering parts of a mdule that already works

I tried my best but I want to know if it is possible to get more bang for my buck or what I should do differently. There is 4hp left over for another module(s) but I do not know what I would fill that space up with.
https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_2303785.jpg

post the urls of your public racks... not jpgs, they don't really help us help you...

I am aware this rack might look stupid, so please look at this patch below for context.

https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/patches/modulargrid_106845.jpg The mixer on the top would run into the unaffected channel of the mixer on the bottom, because it is already mixed. The top mixer has the 2 drum sounds and the east beast. The mixer on the bottom has the west pest, sampler, and the chipz. The mixer on the bottom runs into the headphone and line out on the Erica Synths PICO Out, which I would not buy on stage one (which I mentioned previously) because the top mixer has a headphone out.

Thank you for reading, any feedback would be amazing and I look forwards to the day I have a eurorack of my own.
-- reapingracoon

don't fall into the trap of false economy!!!

buying what you want and what you need to get it to work properly, as opposed to buying xyz because it's cheap WILL SAVE YOU MONEY IN THE LONG TERM... as will buying slowly one or 2 modules at a time and not all at once (no need to fill a rack - that's what blind panels are for - and you can make them yourself from cereal packets, or similar) - buy used from the places I recommended above will save you money over both stores will save you money... buying a better rack may give you a better user experience which in the end is priceless... buying a quad cascading vca (a veils clone for instance) will probably save you money in the long term - vcas are for modulation as well as audio!!!

so instead of a buying a couple of nifty bundles and a couple of semis - buy a mantis (or a doepfer lc6 or lc9) and a decent midi->cv module (mutant brain for instance) and just one of the semis to start with (if & only if you really want that semi, because you like it NOT just because it's cheap) - then add an analog vco, a vcf, a quad cascading vca, a modulation source, an envelope generator, maybe the reverb you want and maybe a alm hpo or the mixer with the headphone out... spend some time learning modular synthesis... work out the modules you actually want and those that you actually need to support them... you won't have all the functionality that you want immediately... but you will have a better understanding of modular synthesis and your own custom instrument that works how you want it to - which to a large extent is the best reason to go modular... it might cost you a bit more (over time) but you won't be making compromises based solely on cost - your grand up front and a $100/month for a couple of years (or whatever)

btw you don't have to mount the reverb tank in the case - you can mount it outside and then you can strum it...

iirc the EYESY is programmable using python scripts - so you can get much more out of it than the obvious... brightness etc can be controlled programatically or by adjusting the contrast/brightness on the screen

Unfortunately, I don't programme so the finer tweaks will be lost to me.

Programming is just problem solving and python is one of the easier languages to get your head around - take an exisitng script and tweak it amd you'll be fine (won't break anything)

that one's almost definitely Lumen out fron MBP (in mono) then into LZX modular (the green looks like its the whole signal going through a doepfer a-116) and at some point it's going through the syntonie cbv01 - then out to a flat screen tv and rescanned using an iPhone

Thanks for sharing the process with me. Seems like a lot of work but the results are astounding! Looks very "analogue"!

Thanks!!! I think that's one of the main things - digital video (including Lumen, Touch Designer and digital video modules etc) always looks digital to me unless it's processed through analog hardware... it's not that it's "better" or "worse", there's just something about it... same with audio...

I started listening to it last night...

It's an acquired taste! lol!

-- Solar01

haha - it is indeed - I'm liking the less noisy, subtler tracks more...

a few notes

1. nRings - (oscillator)

a sound source (NOT an oscillator) and an effect - sound sources are only oscillators when they constantly produce a waveform at the specified pitch - Rings is a resonator - it produces a sound when it is triggered either via the trigger input or receiving a change of pitch or audio is input - that sound then decays or is choked when a new trigger is received (depending on the polyphony setting)

NB Rings is notoriously awkward to tune (at least with a tuner) due to harmonics - the trimmer for frequency on small clones makes this more difficult...

2. uBraids - (oscillator)
3. Forbidden Planet - (filter)
4. A-132-3 DVCA - (vca)

is this enough vcas - remember they're useful for both audio and modulation

5. Monsoon - (fx)

can also be used as a sound source... and really needs attenuation on modulation inputs

6. Function Junction - (envelope/ad/lfo/mixer or attenuator)
7. Pachinko - (random sequencer)
8. A-180-3 - (mult)
9. A-118-2 - (noise/t&h/s&h)

I'd rather have a s&h/t&h that accepts external inputs

10. Disting mk4 - (everything. literally everything.)

I definitely think that in this size case I'd want to go for a single voice with good ergonomics and that's got enough support modules, rather than multiple voices that aren't well supported - "trying to do too much in too small a case" - it's a common beginner folly...

Thanks for sharing your videos. When there is music to the vids, the experience is synaesthetic!!

yeah - can definitely go that way - a lot of the modulation can be shared which helps & I have a module *sensory translator) which takes audio input, splits it into frequency bands and then outputs envelopes per band...

Thanks for explaining how it works! Excellent! The Critter and Guitari EYESY syncs visuals with sounds but looks more superficial and the colours are a bit too bright.

iirc the EYESY is programmable using python scripts - so you can get much more out of it than the obvious... brightness etc can be controlled programatically or by adjusting the contrast/brightness on the screen

There were some videos which I liked a lot - perhaps, they were created with the same analogue gear but I can't tell which one. They have a retro look and a depth of perception without the digital flatness.

If you want to post links to individual videos I might be able to tell you what I used

Here's one of them - looks like a dead TV channel gone psychedelic and retro cyberpunk. Awesome!! Curious about your gear used...

[https://www.instagram.com/p/CLVM5_dBane/]

that one's almost definitely Lumen out fron MBP (in mono) then into LZX modular (the green looks like its the whole signal going through a doepfer a-116) and at some point it's going through the syntonie cbv01 - then out to a flat screen tv and rescanned using an iPhone

I had posted weblinks to my debut CD in the "You" section of the forum. You can stream the album on Bandcamp :

[https://khatulistiwa.bandcamp.com/album/the-silence-that-does-not-exist]

Tracks 4 and 5 were made solely with Eurorack. The rest with Mother-32, Lyra-8, Behringer 2600 Blue Marvin, O-coast, Strega, Recovery Mystic, Eowave Quadrantid Swarm, Wingie 2, guitar pedals and Ableton!

-- Solar01

I started listening to it last night...

EDITED Jul 17th 2023, 09:19

Thanks for sharing your videos. When there is music to the vids, the experience is synaesthetic!!

yeah - can definitely go that way - a lot of the modulation can be shared which helps & I have a module *sensory translator) which takes audio input, splits it into frequency bands and then outputs envelopes per band...

There were some videos which I liked a lot - perhaps, they were created with the same analogue gear but I can't tell which one. They have a retro look and a depth of perception without the digital flatness.

If you want to post links to individual videos I might be able to tell you what I used

Thank you very much for sharing your music. Both tracks are different but equally worthy of inclusion.

-- Solar01

Happy you liked them!

At least, my GAS for guitar pedals has died off as I think I have all that I need now to make my music.

Mine too years ago - a year or so before I got into eurorack - I have a very nice pedal cupboard... I'm planning on getting them out soon... just need to movee a few things around and make a bit more space in the studio for a pedalboard

I hope the same will happen with Eurorack modules as I exhaust possibilities.

-- Solar01

possibilities are endless!!

By the way, I think you have succesfully (and involuntarily) introduced me to another rabbit hole - video modules / gear !!!! (Just by the mention of it) Checking out TACHYONS+ and toying with Lumen demo to see if it is the thing for me....

-- Solar01

sorry for that, didn't mean to... I started messing with Processing3 (Java programming environment for video) and then Lumen and then I discovered video in the function dropdown in the eurorack modules seciton here!!!

here's a link to my instagram where I put video stuff - https://www.instagram.com/jimhowell1970/

the very early stuff on there is Lumen, then it's mostly eurorack video (mostly LZX GEN2 with some DIY modules from LZX, Reverselandfill, Visible Signals and Syntonie - plus some 'audio' modules that will effect video - mostly doepfer wavefolders - they get a bit smeary as the op amps arent' fast enough) and there's also some stuff where I use Lumen as a front and and then process it add to it in the rack...

and a link to my only track on bandcamp - https://communitymodularelectronic.bandcamp.com/track/jim-howell-aintnosunshinehere it was on the 'best of modulargrid 2021' compilation... although my friend optical_collusion thought this one should be on instead -

EDITED Jul 16th 2023, 10:53

@HGSynth has done a great job there with advice

I'd also take a quick look at my signature - & spend some time thinking about it... it's a quick guide to getting the most versatility for the least expense... & it scales well too...

bigger case - check... can't say I'm a fan of the rackbrutes, as a starter case I think the mantis wins every time on every level (hp/cost/manufacturer reputation/decent power supply/no hideous rack wart), but as an addition to a minibrute they make a lot of sense, but only if you're going to connect them physically... if you're not going to connect them and have the rack to the side of the minibrute then the mantis wins (& they come in black now too)

definitely worth investigating more modulation sources and utilities...

Maths is brilliant - it's got decent ergonomics and a decent feature set - which in itself is invaluable, but most importantly there's a lot of educational material - videos and especially the 'maths illustrated supplement' which is an excellent primer for patch programming and patching in general - especially when time is spent trying to understand what, why and how it's doing what it's doing...

the addition of another modulation source such as batumi or zadar is a great idea!

I'd probably go for the Happy Nerding 3 x MIA over the TUL as you get an extra channel in the same hp and ergonomics is still good

a quad cascading vca is a investment - I'd go for a veils clone myself - you can never have too many vcas!!!! yjru're really useful for modulation as well as audio! and they can be used to attenuate modular level down a bit before hitting whatever you're currently using to mix the minibrute and the drum machine

if you can find one, a kinks clone is always useful

if you're thinking of using the turing machine as a pitch sequencer at all, you'll almost definitely want to add a quantizer

I always like a matrix mixer (or 2) - great for combining modulation, setting up feedback loops into sound modifiers, send/return of effects etc etc

I think I have been afflicted with severe GAS since getting into gear last year and modular this year! DIY seems like a rewarding hobby but I can't solder and read schematics to save my life...

-- Solar01

I think almost everyone gets bouts of severe GAS from time to time - at least until you get to a certain point where you can effectively patch most things if you don't already have them - and innovative, interesting modules are few and far between...

I'm reasonably sure that most, if not all, of the modules I buy/build in the future will be either simple utilities or video modules...

Lol! I started with a 6U 104HP rack and added another 3U 104 HP to it with fevered intensity. Now, I am about to fill up a 12U 104HP rack which someone described as "overwhelming". I think I am gonna slow down and get to know the modules more deeply.. and catch my breath!
-- Solar01

hahaha - I wonder how they'd describe my 1800hp or so over 8 cases? but that is over 7 years, not 3 months... but then I like mostly bigger modules with better ergonomics... I didn't go over 6u 72hp for the 1st 6 months or so and I think I was within 6u 104hp for the 1st year - then I discovered both DIY and video...

I agree you are a bit modulation heavy... and utility light... in this size case and for that number of modules...

take a look at my signature file (below) the formula is for how to get the most versatility for the least expense... have a good long think about it... and then come and ask questions - some might be why & what, for example...

the b-company thing is your own personal decision, but it's not just about cloning & really not the clones of older stuff like the roland 100 series (or the 2500 series or even a 2600) - it's the clones of modules that are still in or just out of production etc that people take the most exception to and it's not just modules - they've been doing this for decades with all sorts of stuff, skirting legalities/ethics etc and often poorly and Uli is well, not that nice a guy, whereas lots of the smaller manufacturers are... and they often at least try to innovate whereas b-company generally don't... they're a big company and all the other modular manufacturers really are the small guys that need the support

but there's at least one other guy that a lot of people won't buy things from...

from what I can tell most people don't want to give their cash to racist misogynists, but it's your money, do with it what you want - personally I try not to give money to them, but you can't totally escape giving money to Uli anyway - it's more how much you give them as they own a major synth component (ICs etc) manufacturer - which a lot of modules use components from (becauses there is no other source in a lot of cases)

just because it's a hobby doesn't mean it should be cheap (or vice versa) lots of us humans spend a large amount of our disposable income on our hobbies - & not just modular synths... I can think of lots of hobbies that are, or at least can be, a lot more expensive... and even if you don't have much money, doesn't mean you should necessarily just buy modules at the cheaper end - it just means it takes longer (& possibly a bit more discipline) to buy some modules you might want/need... it's not a race...it's you building your own custom synthesizer... don't expect it to be particularly any cheaper than any other custom/professional level musical instrument (take a look at fender or gibson custom shop guitars or cellos & bows for them for examples) , at least not in the long term... 100/month is not that much, but over 10 years it's 12000... and unlike a lot of other hobbies it will probably still maintain a decent chunk of that in value - especially if you buy more desireable modules & especially compared to beer appreciation, for example - & you'll have got at least the same enjoyment value out of it

but beware of GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) - most of us get a bout from time to time and suddenly all (or most of) your disposable income for a few months or years is gone into the modular

as for cases - to me the mantis is one of the best bang for buck (size/cost/manufacturer reputation/decent power supply) cases out there and a much better starter case than most because of it... no crappy built in midi->cv or audio outs etc (which you may or may not need) which at least to me defeat the "I'm building my own custom instrument" part of modular - but then I don't have either midi->cv or output modules & I've got a fair few & a fair mix of modules from different manufacturers (iirc it was about 40 different manufacturers at last count), but there is nothing random about it - they all serve a purpose...

your question regarding cases is interesting - and depends on a lot of factors - what is a big case? what is a small case? how many is a few? how long is a piece of string?

I have 8 cases of which the smallest is 6u 72hp and the 2 largest are 9u 104hp... lots of people have fewer cases, lots have more cases - possibly bigger or smaller...

I've built 4 of my cases from wood & components myself - functional, but aesthetically challenged is how I'd describe them... you can save a bit of money this way, but not necessarily that much... rails, threaded inserts and decent power supplies cost a significant part of the total cost at the lower end - I reckon those for my 9us (2 104hp, 2 84hp) cost about 2/3rds of a mantis per case and when you factor in time for construction, tools etc etc... personally I wouldn't entertain building anything smaller than 6u (but they're still small cases to me)

if you are going down this route though - befaco make some excellent DIY able power supplies - I have 5 of their excalibus power supplies and they are very good (really very quiet) - and easy, if tedious builds (24 power headers * 16 solder joints per header) - if you can't solder or don't want to learn (always useful for building modules) then they're not that much more to buy ready made and still good value (don't skimp on power supplies)

NP - reason I have an es8/es6 is due to buying before the es9 cme out - if it had been out I'd have bought the es9... although if funds are tight a used es8 now and an es6 in the future might be the way forward...

Thanks so much for your helpful advice and perspectives. Need to fully unleash the potential of each module. Still lots to learn less than 3 months into this modular quest. Lots to think about and re-consider!

-- Solar01

3 months in - relax, have fun, keep researching and asking question (no such thing as a stupid question etc) and work out what you're missing by missing it (and reasearching/asking questions) and most of all just patch and patch and patch again....

depends how many channels you want and whether you want usb or ADAT connectivity

befaco do a 2 channel usb one, expert sleepers do more channels (both ADAT and/or USB) and are often expandable depending on the software you are using and iirc bored brain do one (but that might be ADAT only)

I've got a es8/es6 combo, but I really only use it for audio i/o via usb to my MBP - I do use it for clocking (on channel 3 using a kick sample as the clock from Logic to PNW - using a saved template with the kick sample on every 16th note, so it moves with any tempo changes)

When we equip ourselves with utilities and modulations (see the famous @JimHowell1970’s signature), we expand our possibilities.

-- Sweelinck

Thanks lots for all the helpful suggestions!!! All very helpful and will be considered seriously... I will think about how I can fit in more modules into this rack without spilling over into 15U! I make experimental music, industrial and ambient sounds, and I am enjoying this transition from semi-modular gear to modular! :D

-- Solar01

really just quoting to allow easy access to my famous signature file!!! see below...

the formula basically gives a hint towards most versatility for the least expense, but shouldn't be taken as strict or anything like that - often modules are in multiple categories and how you see them may be different to how I see them and may differ over time... examples are a lot of filters (primarily in the sound modifier camp) can also be used as sound sources, a sound sourcemay in fact be multiple oscillators and some utilities (wavefolders and mixers, for example), mutable rings is definitely both a sound source and a sound processor, lots of vcos can double as lfos, sequencers can be modulation sources etc etc

utilities are often 'hidden' in classical fixed synth architecture and their number is limited (usually by cost) - but this is modular and they are exposed and only limited by how many of them you have - multiples are really useful - so don't just get one and assume that you've ticked them off... you may want to put multiple ticks for each...

an example is the minimoog oscillator section, where there are iirc 3 oscillators and a mixer before the vca/vcf - let's ignore the fact that one of those is the lfo and imagine we have a dedicated lfo (or lfos) and that most similar vcos have multiple outputs for different waveforms rather than switchable output - firstly we'd want a mult to copy the pitch to each of the oscillators, and instead of the a single mixer- ideally we'd have 1 per oscillator to mix waveforms and then another to mix the outputs of those mixers to get a (more flexible) version of that archtecture - the AISynthesis Harmonic Mixer would be a good candidate as it's reasonably inexpensive, has decent control and (being based on the moog cp1) has the nice gain/grit of the original moog mixer - or you could patch in a vca for amplitude modulation, or a wavefolder to add some 'west coast' vibes or whatever

another example is a clock divider... great for triggers and gates, but send in audio and use an even division and out comes a square wave at a lower octave than the input (/2 = -1ve, /4 = -2ve, etc) - which is why I'd always recommend an extra basic clock diveider as well as whatever's being used for regular clock division!

Maths seems to be a great starter utility set - 2 envelope generators/slews/lfos, a mixer, 2 attenuverters/offsets and some basic logic.. but once its self-patched - it can be programmed to do all sorts of more interesting things - see the 'maths illustrated supplement' for more details - so it's a really good idea to have at least some of that functionality duplicated in other modules as well - so you can use it when you patch program maths... or of course multiple copies of Maths (or both!)

and a final example - the matrix mixer - possibly my favourite utility module - and really I'm just meaning basic mono versions, not VC ones or stereo ones or overly complicated ones that need special cables (although all these have their places, except maybe the special cables, which I'd lose) - not only can they be used for creating additional complex modulation from simpler sources, by mixing copies of those simpler modulation sources together in various amounts, but they can also be used as simple send/return routers for effects and for creating feedback loops (which can be done on other mixers too, btw) as well as many other applications I'm sure you can think of...

hope all this helps...

I'd look at some audio software development environments for this - either code it yourself in something like praxis or maybe Max or similar has one already built

there shouldn't be any trouble with voltages up to 12v - probably not over that either, but it is possible...

things are triggered at much lower voltages - they are often just looking for a rising edge

an attenuverter would not do that - what you are describing is an offset, which may be part of an attenuverter module, but not the attenuversion (which is attenuation and inversion) - modules such as happy nerding 3 x MIA and mutable shades can do this , but a basic attenuverter may not! BUT this may not work if the module being triggered is looking for a rising edge at say 3v to open - you'd probably be better off amplifying the signal - this can often be achieved by multing the signal and then using a simple mixer to amplify the signal by 2- so from 0-5v you'd get 0-10v

if you don't have attenuators or attenuverters yet - then I'd advise getting some - mostly for controlling modulation - 0-10v (full range) on a lot of modulation inputs can sound crap - whereas 0-1v (a smaller range) can sound great

as an alternative (or in addition) to more modulation I'd seriously consider adding a matrix mixer... combining modulation sources makes them more complex...

attenuators/attenuverters would also be useful!

Creativity has nothing to do with gear. It's you that needs to be creative with the tools you've got. Completely re-think your system, make a smaller setup and focus on certain ideas or modules, read Allan Strange's book on synthesis techniques... For sure you'll get creative again.
Also: there's some modules being released that are completely new like f.i. Klavis Grainity, MN Spectraphon (maybe not completely new), phase modulation oscillators... I'd just stop looking at all those new things and record an album with the stuff you allready own. ;-)

perhaps go even further than this... create a single patch - ie a costom instrument and create a whole album with it... you can change the tempo, notes played, any switches and knobs, but not the patch cacles... you'll really learn to play that instrument... then pull the patch cables, create a new instrument and repeat...

Hi there,

would anyone be so kind as to advice a powered eurorack for a setup with 4 modules?

Total of 64 TE /HP
Depth: max 46 mm

Thanks in advance,
Andrea
-- AndreaT

yeah get something much bigger...

& which 4 modules? you are almost definitely lacking in many areas... especially support modules...

Price is not correct, it's 328 at Schneiders and probably everywhere else as well ..
-- UFFFD

it's the same for a lot of modules... prices quoted are only a rough guide... and don't yend to get updated very often if at all

iirc the prices are also only entered in 1 currency in this example USD and then coverted to EUR, not entered explicitly for a particular currency (& prices often differ between resellers anyway) & so they do not include cost of distribution and sales taxes (VAT/TVA?BTW), to name 2 things that may impact actual sale prices...

Thank you for the feedback!
I'll have to think about the concept more.
Some clarifications below:

voice leading requires at least one sequencer channel per voice - unless you only want to be able to play in unison or in fixed intervals

you have a quad quantizer, but no melodic sequencer to feed it - so how are you intending to sequence the voices in your rack? if the answer is I don't know, but I'd like to control the notes - then get a sequencer that's big enough to control those voices - something like a erica black sequencer, or the new hermod+, both of which include quantisers, as do almost all sequencers in the "battleship sequencer" category

My idea was to use the Harlequin as a sequencer and modulate, offset, invert etc. multiples of it before quantization.
Then trigger rhythms for the melodies and drums via "trigger action" (pam's, binary akkumulator & burst).
I was hoping to use triggers to modulate the Harlequin sequences somewhat with sample & hold, slew limiter stuff.

you have 4 vcos and a sampler... but only a single vcf... so immediately you are out of polyphonic territory and into paraphonic... for polyphony, as mentioned above, you need a vcf per voice - on top of this there is not enough mixing to reduce the 4 channels of vcos to a stereo signal before sending to the vcf... you may be envisioning the 2 shakmat vcos and the waveshaper as a single complex oscillator?

Ok. I see it; lacking filter and mixing capacity. The complex oscillator was indeed envisioned as an patching option.
I was hoping to use the sampler and disting to stretch to kinda-sorta 4 voices for ... an patching option.

work out how many voices you really want...

Not less than 2.

-- JimHowell1970

Cheers

-- krmk

in that case I'd look at reducing the number of voices to 2 and increasing the amount of utility modules - especially mixers /cascding vcas (happy nerding might be a good option as they are often smallish - 6hp - 3MIA, 3VCA etc) to facilitate the generation - personally I like the ability to deliberately input sequences as well as 'randomly' generate them... so I just use a marbles for 'random' - if I had one I'd use the harlequin's context for making changes to modulation and routing etc - to differentiate sections of music