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When commenting on the Intellijel Quad VCA, in another thread, I was suggesting the Doepfer A-135-2. However, as Lugia quickly pointed out it's DC coupled, and linear.
So, maybe you have some/a suggestion(s) for alternative VCA modules that have similar functionality to the A-135-2's 'Selected' and 'All' outputs? I love using the Quad VCA, but I'm often frustrated when using it as a mixer, which as each output is normalled to the mix input of the adjacent one, you end up 'cutting' your signal chain when being sent to the 4th out - if you see what I mean.
... or maybe I should just get a dedicated mixer module instead?
BTW, a couple of ideas I had were: WMD MULTIMODE VCA, and the CWEJMAN VCA-4MX QUAD VCA MIXER.
The WMD is easy to find here - in Europe. I see it's only 2 channels though, so that's bad luck, and, buying two would just be the same as buying one Cwejman (I guess).
Strange the Cwejman's are so expensive, people talk about them in YT videos, but always add in that they are very expensive. From what I understand, the quality is incredible, but does that mean Intellijels are rubbish because they're cheaper, I think not. Or, are the Cwejman just made in very small batches maybe?
As for "keep the quad (or swap it out for a veils) and add a simple 4 channel mixer", sounds not so bad, but in the end you might as well just buy the Cwejman, which would come to the same price or cheaper anyhow.
cwejman always were made in very small batches, (order and wait and wait), from what I can gather, and there's been a gap in production since Woja (Cwejman, the designer) died, apparently they are starting to be built again, but unless you want to get on the (quite long) wait list (expect years) then it's the used market only and as they are 'unobtanium', they tend to go for a lot more used than retail prices, especially quoted on modulargrid, would appear - supply and demand
I just checked on wigglehunt - there appear to be 5 available - ranging from $840-1100, all in the US, so probably + shipping and import duties etc - that's roughly 4 times the price of veils or the quad vca or the wmd
by simple 4 channel mixer I was meaning something in the 100-150€ bracket
keeping the quad vca you have (or swapping it out for a veils) and adding something in this bracket will save you a lot of money!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Brilliant, thanks Jim that's interesting, I'll think all that over and try to replan my VCA ideas.
BTW, another couple of things I came up with are the Bastl QUATTRO FIGARO, shame it's also discontinued, but maybe not impossible to find, and I wondered if the WMD triple bipolar VCA could be interesting and work for me?
what exactly are you trying to do? - maybe post a link to your rack - imo it's often better to get multiple basic modules that when patched together work how you want them to rather than struggling to find a particular module that works in a specific way - it's modular after all - and you may not want it to work that way next month, or even next patch
this is one of the reasons that bigger cases are better - there's space to add simple building block modules that can be patched together to do different things/behave in different ways - which is also why Maths beats most of the other DUSG based modules (especially for beginners) as it has the excellent 'maths illustrated supplement' as a guide to patch programming, which can be extended to patching in general!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
A dedicated mixer module is where you should go. The quad VCA is great. But using it as a mixer AND a VCA at the same time is pretty limited. You can't adjust volume levels without opening the bias or sacrificing a VCA as an attenuator then plugged into another VCA to shape a volume envelope. I would think as the ability to mix as an EXTRA functionality and not a core. In my experience it's an either/or proposition.
I use a Quadratt 1U mixer/attenuverter for simple mixing duties. The Quadratt can be used for that, or individual attenuverting. But any small, monophonic mixer that's DC coupled will work if you don't have 1U rails in your system.
Keep the Quad VCA unless space is an issue. A 2HP Mix for $100 should do the trick... and it's 2HP. I don't like the knobs on 2HP stuff. But for this purpose, they are fine. It's generally a set-and-forget thing.
Really good advice, thanks you both. I should say that I maybe gave the wrong impression - that I was getting rid of the Quad VCA. If so, I didn't mean that, I love the Quad VCA, it gets used all the time.
Good idea for the 2HP Mix, I hadn't thought about that (I imagine you mean this one: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/2hp-mix). The linear VCAs also seem a good idea too.
Just to put you in the picture, here's my rack at present. The modules on the bottom right are things I'm thinking over (you'll see all the VCAs and mixer bits + the Brenso which I'm hesitating about). What you can't see is a Pittsburgh SV-1B, a Make Noise 0-Coast, and a Synthstrom Deluge, which I use for drums, or sequencing, or triggering the bitbox, etc.
So, now you see my hand of cards, you can maybe make other suggestions too!
Thanks in advance.
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ALM Busy Circuits Tangle Quartet is another good quad VCA and mixer to consider.
I'd add a matrix mixer, fx aid xl and something that can do offsets and inversion (3*MIA, perhaps) probably replace all the new vcas with a happy nerding one too if this were my case
something like this
wouldn't be my case though - I have multiple problems with the frap tools modules, but that's just me - although I'm sure they are great... I think bresno is way too big for a case this size - as there's not enough room left over for modules to support it - add another row, though and it'd be substantially better
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
To me, the Frap modules...save for some of the smaller ones...are an unintelligible mess. Yes, it might make them more internationally acceptable by using symbols only...but then again, English is pretty much the lingua franca for synths with only a few exceptions. For example, I can easily figure out what the Frap 321 is and does...which is one reason why I recommend it. But the Brenso? The Sapel? Nowayinhell. And this is coming from someone with 40-ish years in on electronic music.
Wait for the Tiptop/Buchla 258t to drop sometime around the first of the year, however. You could buy THREE of those for what one Brenso goes for and still have beer money. And the 258 is super-capable...which is why the Brenso is somewhat based on them. Plus...it's got WORDS on it. And words on control panels are a good thing.
... or maybe I should just get a dedicated mixer module instead?
Probably the right move. Consider: a proper performance mixer offers VCAs for audio levels, panning, usually AUX levels, and sometimes a CUE bus, headphone preamp, metering, etc etc. Yeah, something like a Toppobrillo Stereomix2 is $400+...but it's got at least $400 worth of submodules hiding inside. However...
...and the CWEJMAN VCA-4MX QUAD VCA MIXER.
-- joesh
To have that module, you'll need sufficient money to afford it...and also, to afford a time machine to go back about ten years, as Woja's been dead for a hot minute. But by and large, charging brain-wrenching prices for stuff like that is more about...ah...well, why do people buy Ferraris when they KNOW they'll mostly be driven from home to the service garage and back again? Same idea...you're paying for a name when you really just need the module. Save your money.
If you like Falistri, you'll like Brenso. You'll be familiar with the smaller attenuverters and the tiny switches. The colour coding, layout, and iconography are similar. These were among the first modules I bought, and I enjoy them a great deal.
I’m with Lugia the Frap Tools modules make my head spin with the hieroglyphics labels and Instruo is like that to some degree as is Make Noise. I like the clear labels on Intellijel modules. Wish more makers could focus on clear easy to understand modules.
for me - it's not the symbols per se, it's the layout of the panels - it's all over the place - clumps of jacks and knobs, that don't line up - Make Noise aesthetics are 1000 * better imo - frap tools modules, particularly the big ones, are some of the worst panel designs in eurorack as far as I am concerned - they seem to have used the 'design language' of "a mess in black highlighted with bright colours and fuck the ergonomics even though they are large modules"
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I'd add a matrix mixer, fx aid xl and something that can do offsets and inversion (3*MIA, perhaps) [...] - I have multiple problems with the frap tools modules, but that's just me - although I'm sure they are great... I think bresno is way too big for a case this size - as there's not enough room left over for modules to support it - add another row, though and it'd be substantially better
-- JimHowell1970
Hey Jim, big thanks for the case update, that's really helpful, especially as I can see it in action with your rack image, brilliant. The WMD Tool-Box looks really interesting, I hadn't thought of that. In fact due to this I'm going to have a much deeper look at the WMD modules, they look as though they have a very nice range indeed. And, oddly enough, I had the Happy Nerding modules in my original 'idea' when first starting. Somehow, they got forgotten along the way, so thanks for the reminder. Lastly, I'm glad the In the Trees A/B Mixer's still in there, I also thought that it looked basic, but so useful.
So, just to add a comment, the Brenso is (as I said) just an idea at present, so indeed, as Lugia says, if I want to go down that path for less money, I could try out the Tiptop/Buchla 258t. Of course, if it can do the same thing for a third of the price I'd be very happy - as many would. Another couple of possibilities which look interesting (I think) are the Gravitational Waves by Void Modular, and the Intellijel Rubicon 2, or something else (not quite the same, but) which looks very versatile the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator.
As for another row ... I've got that covered, I've also got a 104hp skiff that's empty (or used as needed). So, I could expand even more at a later date.
As for the symbols and layout of Frap Tools discussion, I don't really see why people get so wound-up about them. FT are trying to do their own thing, like plenty of other makers out there - who BTW also have wacky images and odd layouts. I bought the Falistri due to recommendations here, and have to say I love it. Once you see how they've laid it out, it's very very easy to use, and logical. The quality of the build of their stuff (from what I've seen) is very good.
Lastly (@Lugia), don't worry about the CWEJMAN VCA-4MX, I just thought it looked interesting and it clearly is, but too expensive, which you mentioned on another thread (I think). However, luckily everyone here who's answered my questions, has come up with some alternative solutions which gives me plenty of ideas/solutions as where to move next on my set-up.
I'd add a matrix mixer, fx aid xl and something that can do offsets and inversion (3*MIA, perhaps) [...] - I have multiple problems with the frap tools modules, but that's just me - although I'm sure they are great... I think bresno is way too big for a case this size - as there's not enough room left over for modules to support it - add another row, though and it'd be substantially better
-- JimHowell1970
Hey Jim, big thanks for the case update, that's really helpful, especially as I can see it in action with your rack image, brilliant. The WMD Tool-Box looks really interesting, I hadn't thought of that. In fact due to this I'm going to have a much deeper look at the WMD modules, they look as though they have a very nice range indeed. And, oddly enough, I had the Happy Nerding modules in my original 'idea' when first starting. Somehow, they got forgotten along the way, so thanks for the reminder. Lastly, I'm glad the In the Trees A/B Mixer's still in there, I also thought that it looked basic, but so useful.
No problem - I'm happy it was helpful
don't forget to check out the wmd/ssf collaborative modules like the toolbox (hint they're all listed under steady state fate here)
re: the trees a/b mixer - I'd probably have taken it out and replaced it with something else - to get something stereo and to get something else in the rack! but it was the middle of the night
So, just to add a comment, the Brenso is (as I said) just an idea at present, so indeed, as Lugia says, if I want to go down that path for less money, I could try out the Tiptop/Buchla 258t. Of course, if it can do the same thing for a third of the price I'd be very happy - as many would. Another couple of possibilities which look interesting (I think) are the Gravitational Waves by Void Modular, and the Intellijel Rubicon 2, or something else (not quite the same, but) which looks very versatile the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator.
If I ever buy another oscillator it'll be the tiptop 258t - I've got a dannysound cali which is based on the 258 - and it'd be nice to be able to have a 2-3 osc voice from time to time
As for another row ... I've got that covered, I've also got a 104hp skiff that's empty (or used as needed). So, I could expand even more at a later date.
but if I'd known that I wouldn't have crammed such small modules in!!
As for the symbols and layout of Frap Tools discussion, I don't really see why people get so wound-up about them. FT are trying to do their own thing, like plenty of other makers out there - who BTW also have wacky images and odd layouts. I bought the Falistri due to recommendations here, and have to say I love it. Once you see how they've laid it out, it's very very easy to use, and logical. The quality of the build of their stuff (from what I've seen) is very good.
I can't disagree with any of that - never used one of their modules - but, having over 100 modules, from a wide variety of manufacturers - see comments above - Maths makes more sense as a learning tool - due to the fantastic resource that is the 'maths illustrated supplement' - and for me ergonomics are really important - plus we all like to discuss things - looks like me, sacguy74 and Lugia have bonded more over our shared dislike of frap tools - some people don't like make noise for similar reasons - tbh not many of their modules I like the look of either - Maths, optomix and lxd are pretty much the exceptions there - or mutable clones - which again we seem to agree on
Lastly (@Lugia), don't worry about the CWEJMAN VCA-4MX, I just thought it looked interesting and it clearly is, but too expensive, which you mentioned on another thread (I think). However, luckily everyone here who's answered my questions, has come up with some alternative solutions which gives me plenty of ideas/solutions as where to move next on my set-up.
Very big thanks to all.
-- joesh
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
So, just to add a comment, the Brenso is (as I said) just an idea at present, so indeed, as Lugia says, if I want to go down that path for less money, I could try out the Tiptop/Buchla 258t. Of course, if it can do the same thing for a third of the price I'd be very happy - as many would.
-- joesh
The 258t will not do the same things as Brenso. It may do pretty much what you want, though, and it will be almost half the size and a third the price. Better direct points of comparison are the Buchla 259 and its Eurorack descendants, including ones made by Verbos, Instruō, Hexinverter, Endorphin.es, and others, which tend to be large and expensive also.
Actually, the fun of starting a thread is all the various directions it sends you. I have to say, after looking at these posts, I realise I seriously need a mixer module (of some sort), and secondly on the pros and cons of Frap Tools side, apart from the Tiptop/Buchla 258t, I'm quite curious to discover the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator, which from watching a few demos I wonder if I might get more mileage out of that in the long run - hmm, decisions, decisions!
Anyhow, thanks again.
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Frap Tools are very expensive priced modules as are Verbos modules plus very large sized. A friend has the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator and it sounds amazing. It is on my wishlist along with the Knobula Poly Cinematic oscillator. I want small polyphonic modules for my smaller cases to get big sound in travel setups. Acid Rain Chainsaw also sounds massive and is a small module.
I have the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator and love it. Modulating the spread to create melodies over the core melody is super satisfying. Not sure what exactly you are after, but that module sounds amazing. You could also go with a 4ms Listen Four or Four Quarters(depending on what outputs you want) and it will replace your output module and allow for 2 panable mono channels and 2 full stereo channels of input as well as a headphone out and not take up too much space.
I have the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator and love it. [...]. You could also go with a 4ms Listen Four or Four Quarters(depending on what outputs you want) and it will replace your output module and allow for 2 panable mono channels and 2 full stereo channels of input as well as a headphone out and not take up too much space.
-- xnax
That's brilliant, thanks for the suggestions. In fact I think if I swapped out the Befaco OUT V3 for the Four Quarters, and a 2hp Mix, I'd have a more workable set up (mixing wise).
As for the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator, I'm mulling that one over, but it looks very tempting indeed!
