User Posts

Thanks for your quick response, Jim, it is appreciated. Some responses to your posts below:
NP

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I think it's a toss up between Tempi and Pams - the interfaces are quite different etc... try to work out which one you'd rather work with through watching videos and reading the manuals - Tempi is more button combination presses and Pams is more menu divey (although quite shallow and easy to learn - all channels have the same menu - but the 'programming' interface is relatively basic - the new screen - on the Pro - is apparantly much better and more informative than just some LEDs)
JimHowell1970

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I thought about Pams (as you will have seen from the rack) and have seen mention of the Pro version, but it seems like there’s a fair amount of menu diving involved and people have said it’s a far more complicated unit than Tempi. Remains to be seen which is better for my use case, if I get one at all. I do like the idea of an all MN case though… (I know this is a silly thing to say)

you said it (the idea of a single manufacturer case being silly) & there are a few advantages - but I think the disadvantages outweigh them... part of having a modular is that it's your custom instrument - single manufacturer modulars in some way dilutes this, imo... yes you can patch it how you want and it includes whichever modules you want, but you're still sticking to a single manufacturers design philosophy... not necessarily a bad thing, but, well, not necessarily the best approach...

re Pams menu diving... it's probably the least menu-divey menu I've ever used... select which channel you want to edit, select menu, select parameter, change parameter, done... and remember that once set up you can save it as a preset and reload it... I find this much easier to deal with than remembering button press combinations (Tempi) and Pams is much more powerful in a lot of ways than Tempi... not just triggers/gates, but also modulation, envelopes, quantized stepped random, etc etc...

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there'll definitely be a learning curve - take it slowly etc... you'll get there - it's not much different than vcv rack - except you'll have a limited number of module and a limited number of patch cables... and be able to physically control 2 differnt knobs at once...
JimHowell1970

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Oddly this is one of the main reasons I want to get hardware, to negate the ‘endless modules’ possibilities and 'endless cables' of VCV. As nice as it is, I think all that choice isn’t necessarily a good thing. At first, perhaps, but certainly not in the long run. I think it lengthens your learning curve and as a result encumbers your ability to make useful stuff, well unless you stick to a handful of modules only. This is essentially what I'm trying to do, by just using a handful of MI modules and some utilities.

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the tape and sound machine - don't know - maybe - the rack above - imo too much to start with and very heavily leaning towards too many voices and effects and not enough moudlation and utiliites - see my signature for some hints!
JimHowell1970

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I know there’s at least one too many Plaits in there, but I do like the flexibility of it as a module that can be used for percussive as well as traditional voices. Any specific ideas on how to improve that silly rack in more specifically would be greatly appreciated! That's one thing I need to get a better handle on, utilities. I don't know enough about them at all.

see my post above - start slowly and grow organically and slowly...

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probably - I use a kick sample in Logic for sync - played from my audio interface (es8) into PNW - works perfectly... I've set up Pams to start/stop/reset based on this clock... I've also heard of people using the run input similarly... I'd suspect that tempi can work the same - you may need some amplification for the clock etc...
JimHowell1970

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Thanks, I have as yet been unable to find a definitive answer to this, specifically when it comes to using it with Cubase. It has all sorts of clock sending options, but this isn’t the typical midi clock stuff I'm used to. It’s quite important that I can do this though, since I would like to, whenever I use more rhythmically orientated and delayed sounds, for it to synchronise and play well with my other equipment and arrangements.

all DAWs are similar... the same process will work with Cubase, ProTools, Reason, Ableton, Fruity Loops etc etc... there may be different short cuts to getting it to work... ie apparently you can use a loop in Logic (& probably other DAWs) to reduce the need to copy and paste etc... but once it's done, it's done and no need to fix what is not broken!

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depends on the midi->cv interface - I'd do some more research before committing to one - the mutant brain - now made by Erica Synths is reputedly a very good and versatile example - also available as a stand alone unit the cv.ocd - if rack space is an issue
JimHowell1970

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This is the thing, I am not sure how this works, at all, and haven’t been able to find much information on it. Is this a module only type of solution, i.e. you need a specific midi to CV module or are there other ways of accomplishing this via some kind of converter box? Or must your midi device specifically have CV out, like the Arturia controllers?

you can use a midi->cv module, or a device with cv outputs... it's up to you...

mutant brain is a multi-channel cv->midi module...

cv.ocd is the exact same thing in an external unit...

I'd go with even less stuff to start:

Here's where I would start based on your description:
Keystep - Midi-CV

yes, but not for it's midi-> cv, but because it's got a basic cv sequencer in it... even this could be dropped and use Pams for quantized stepped random loops as a pitch and envelope 'sequencer' to start with... it's more important that you can generate some pitch & gate/envelope information than what it is at least to start with...

Clock - Pam's (for clocks and slow evolving LFO/Random)

yes - & see above! the new Pro version is probably a better buy than the older New version - consider a passive mult and an attenuator module (happy nerding 3* mia, for example) as a good way to make Pams go a bit further.. they're also good investments for the future...

Sound Source - Plaits

yes definitely a sound source, but pretty much anything will do... plaits does have the advantage of having a built in lpg (vca/filter combo) and lots of different sounds it can generate... if you do want plaits.. go for a full size clone and not a micro version... ergonomics are better and it'll be easier to tune!

Filter - to taste (Cinnamon, Ikari, Wasp, lot's of great choices)

if getting plaits... this is a nice to have, but I don't think essential, due to plaits being a voice module in a lot of ways, as well as being an oscillator... 2nd batch of modules unless you go with something other than plaits...

Sampler - BitBox Micro (also has Midi in)

could easily be in a 2nd batch... or "batch 1.5"... maybe, learn to use what you want to sample first... then add in the sampler... could be part of 1st batch, but don't start trying to patch it in before you have a grip on everything else...

External - Somethign to make connecting Mic or 1/4 instrument easy

again... maybe not in the 1st batch... something with envelope follower and gate extractor would be a good idea... befaco instrument interface (adds phantom power, xlr and quite quiet) or doepfer a-119 (noisier, but cheaper)... if you want to sample yourself playing, for instance, guitar, then think about how you are going to do play and control the sampler transports etc at the same time... there are modules to use with footswitches and expression pedals... these may be key to what you want to achieve! so you may want to get one or more of those at the same time as an external input!

Modulation - Stages/Clone for Envelopes and modulation

again maybe batch 2 - use Pams for modulation and envelopes to start with... gert this when you need more modulation...

VCA - Veils/Clone

yes... possibly one of the best investments in eurorack

FX - to taste (Morphagene and Memeophone are very good, but there are TONS of amazing FX)

not essential for learning... but probably a good idea so you can get some different sounds out of the modular from day 1.. personally I'd go for an fx aid pro, though and then add in whatever specialised effect module you want in a later batch... the fx aid pro has 200 different algorithms (covering all sorts of things including reverbs, delays, etc) and has a decent amount of modulation inputs - as well having an internal lfo... it also has a basic, if functional scope (which can be used at the same time as an effect - it uses a different input) which a lot of people seem to like as it helps them visualise waveforms - both audio and cv - and can help understanding... ears are better though... want to know what a modulation source is doing? send it to pitch input of vco and listen to it...

another great thing about the fx aid is that it also has a load of percussion algorithms... so if /when you are using a multi-channel sampler - you have those to sample and build a rhythm track from...

make sure to get the pro though... the others use LED combos to show algorithm, which needs a cheat sheet to figure out & only hold 32 algos an obviously no scope... if you get a subsequent one these are fine... as you can order the algos so the pro is the cheat sheet!

Audio Mixer - Something that interfaces with your other equipment well

you could easily use the veils clone for this to start with... just make sure to start with everything turned down...

So many modules out there it’s completely overwhelming.
-- Darclinc

yes 11k+ of modules is quite a lot... at least to start with sticking to better known/more popular brands can definitely help! and sticking to modules that are 'in production'...

what are the stated power outputs per rail for the x1 psu3?

do you mean 1 * a doepfer psu3???

if so the stated power supplies per rail are 12V / 2000mA, -12V / 1200mA, +5V/4000mA

your stated draw is:

+12V: 1936 mA
-12V: 863 mA
5V: 0 mA

and your current draw is 1850mA on the 12v...

general advice is to leave at least 25-30% headroom on each rail - you're already way over that without adding any more modules - I suspect this is a LC9 case - they're great for basic analog modules, but a bit underpowered for a lot of digital modules which you have in your case...

based on that - you may be ok, you may not be, you probably won't damage any modules, but you may blow the fuse in the case, or you may just experience issues with inrush and some modules may not power up correctly...

either way if I were you I wouldn't add that module to this case...

If it was me I'd spend the money on another case and start adding some basic analog utility modules to enhance your patching and reduce the power draw on this case and then buy the module you want

EDITED Sep 7th 2023, 20:30

well i dont know you or how you speak. this is not a speaking forum, its a writen forum. and you followed the first guy who was obviously fishing for a reaction and skirted the line between being civil and offensive. lucky you following a class act like that. but ok man thanks for the good words. and respect to your paradigm.

-- pointandclicksystems

I type as I speak... it's all just communication isn't it!?!

always best to assume the best, or at the very least, the least bad...

hey bro, this tone is what you should lead with the next time you have a negative review for someones creation. what you led with was far below the tone you are now taking. and you knew this when you trolled me. but thanks for maning up and becoming a gent.

no, you're not getting the point - I wasn't trolling - I was just making an "off the cuff, witty, albeit opinionated, observation" in reply to the previous post, not a review - to do that I'd actually have to have actually played with one of these! imo, your tome - ie taking someone else's off the cuff remark and railing against it - points to the troll, if any, being you!

but not to worry...

if you're going to take every bit of criticism and differing opinions to those of yours as trolling then that's very binary thinking! and really doesn't reflect well on you... and that in turn doesn't reflect well on your business... just take a look at Uli Behringer and the Synthrotek guy! so I would advise good grace in relation to criticism/opinions etc of your products in future!

please note that a lot can be lost in translation between an englishman and an american - despite speaking a similar language!!!

I, for example, have default settings of dry humour and sarcasm... there is never any offence intended - any offence taken (as previously stated it is impossible to give offence in the English language), is the sole responsibility of the offended...

& actually I said something quite nice - ie I think these types of module, whilst not for me, are 'clever'... I'd take that as a compliment!

.... power is provided separate from the euro rail as requirements would push past any normal PSU made for euro modules. the only thing powered by the rail are (optionally) fans and only with the intention of allowing a user to slow them down to avoid the jet engine effect.
-- pointandclicksystems

you do appear to have done a very good job of thinking at least a lot of the downsides of this... and mitigating... so good job!!

again best of luck, I hope you sell loads!

Lastly, I'm also contemplating expanding it with a Tempi module later for enhanced clocking and modulation options.

I think it's a toss up between Tempi and Pams - the interfaces are quite different etc... try to work out which one you'd rather work with through watching videos and reading the manuals - Tempi is more button combination presses and Pams is more menu divey (although quite shallow and easy to learn - all channels have the same menu - but the 'programming' interface is relatively basic - the new screen - on the Pro - is apparantly much better and more informative than just some LEDs)

Now, I have a few questions:

1. Despite having been in audio production and synths for 20+ years, how hard is this system and modules to learn?

there'll definitely be a learning curve - take it slowly etc... you'll get there - it's not much different than vcv rack - except you'll have a limited number of module and a limited number of patch cables... and be able to physically control 2 differnt knobs at once...

2. Is this system a good starting point for a modular noob and my objectives?

the tape and sound machine - don't know - maybe - the rack above - imo too much to start with and very heavily leaning towards too many voices and effects and not enough moudlation and utiliites - see my signature for some hints!

3. Can I easily sync Tempi with my DAW (Cubase) to start/stop my modular rig with my arrangement?

probably - I use a kick sample in Logic for sync - played from my audio interface (es8) into PNW - works perfectly... I've set up Pams to start/stop/reset based on this clock... I've also heard of people using the run input similarly... I'd suspect that tempi can work the same - you may need some amplification for the clock etc...

4. Is it possible to reset the units clock when starting, stopping and resetting the playhead position?

see above answer to 3

5. Can this rig somehow accept other types of MIDI, like notes from my NI S88 keyboard? What options are available or what additional equipment is needed to do this?

depends on the midi->cv interface - I'd do some more research before committing to one - the mutant brain - now made by Erica Synths is reputedly a very good and versatile example - also available as a stand alone unit the cv.ocd - if rack space is an issue

6. Are there real risks of damaging any unit/s through improper patching (e.g., outputs into outputs)?

not really with most modern modules - this may have been an issue in the past - although it may also be an old wives tale to some extent - I've accidentally patched outputs to outputs many times and had a problem... (I have a reasonable number of the modules that you have in this rack - especially the mutable ones)

hope all this helps!

still learning and playing...
I can create some nice sounds and sequences experimenting all the modules togheter

excellent....

Plaits is nice for the sounds and also wavetable add more depth when lowering the octave

Math is used as controller of some effect , it is a complicated LFO in my hands.

'maths illustrated supplement' - work through it multiple times - think about what why and how!!!

Mother 32 is so good and clean, maybe because was the first one in my hands and now I can control it better.

still thinking what module to add at my rack...
I like to play ambient and soundscapes, no drums for the moment...
Generative is also a direction

what you suggest?

-- centecente

ambient soudnscapes - reverb and delay are great for this... especially when subtly modulated! - percussion not so much imo - slow, chaotic modulation - triple sloth for example - or random modulation - wobblebug - although both benefit from a lot of attenuation/attenuversion/(matrix) mixing etc - so as always - utiltiies!

generative - in a box it's difficult to ignre marbles (clones), turing machines etc - although there's a lot to be said for running multiple gates through a (vc) mixer and into a quantizer for generating random melodies

this seems at least respectful
-- pointandclicksystems

it's always wise to remember that respect is something to be earned and not just expected... what you're really saying is that that post was not critical!!

just like it's a good thing to be able to tell the difference between flippant and/or witty banter, opinion, criticism and insult...

especially when you are promoting a product... you can either 'show good grace' or behave like Uli...

NB where I come from, to a large extent, we reserve insults for our friends - it's how we express our love for them!!

for the record - I use a computer a lot of the time & for a myriad of purposes... including, but not limited to: multitrack recording, video synth front end and back end, programming etc

my use of the terms 'modular synthesis' and 'synthesis with modules' is both descriptive and philosophical...

by 'modular synthesis' I mean the use of fundamentally basic building block modules - such as vcos, vcas, vcfs, simple utilities etc that are patched together using patch cables to achieve synthesis - ie "traditional" modular synthesis

by 'synthesis with modules' I mean the use of extremely complex modules that do a lot of these things for you and maybe similar to fixed architecture or semi-modular synthesizers within a module... or in the extreme 'computer as module' ie your modules, ZOIA and Hector

often I describe racks as "less 'modular synthesis' and more 'synthesis with modules'" - in that they comprise of mainly voice and effect modules with modulation and utilities (often the most important/interesting components of a modular synthesizer) as at best afterthoughts...

neither of these are particularly good or bad, just different, nor are they to be taken as binary - there is a wide spectrum between them and to a large extent from what I can see, most modular "users" also fall somewhere between the 2 - I certainly do...

a lot of people get into modular as a way of avoiding computer screens (I didm't) and I don't think these extreme 'computer in a module' modules really appeal to them, and in terms of interface design... well let's just say I think vcv rack is 1000 times better, despite the drawback of the interface - mouse = single parameter at a time change - midi controller = better, but still llimited...

they seem to me to be for people who want a modular synthesizer, but don't really like modular synthesizers... or at least the usage paradigm - at it's best - knob per function/function per knob, patch programmability (with actual physical patch cables etc

your module is in lots of ways (or at least in my impressions) much better, although, at least in my opinion, it's a bit redundant...

as a module with a screen:
in a studio: not only does it take up valuable rack space (& power i suspect), but it's doing something that's often already there - the "studio" computer - which only needs an interface (I use an es8/es6 combo to connect to my MacBook Pro), which (given the pre-existing MBP) takes up less rack space and costs less... and is just as, if not more, useful - I can carry my MBP to somewhere else and use it for other prurposes...

as a portable: it takes up valuable rack space (& power) and probably adds more weight - my MBP is about 1.2kg... but and this is the only downside - I'd have to take my MBP and some cables etc with me

as a module without a screen:
in practice I suspect (& it's only a suspicion, I might be wrong) your module is near unusable without a screen... so:
in a studio: the user needs to add a screen, taking up effectively the same space as an external computer, in a lot of cases...

as a portable: the user would have to transport an external screen in able to see what's going on... and a screen is far more cumbersome and awkward to transport than a laptop...

as such whilst I truely think that your module (and ZOIA & Hector) are all really clever devices (& much kudos for you and their creators for coming up with them), I also think they are 'awful' modules and I wouldn't want them in my rack... in exactly the same way I appreciate that there are some clever theists and neo-liberals, but I think they have awful, misguided opinions and wouldn't want them in my house...

I'm sure there are many, many people who think differently... and that's great - as always posts express my opinions and are not intended to cause offence (remember in English: offence can only be taken and not given!)

I really hope you sell loads (same goes for ZOIA and Hector) - I wish you the greatest of successes in your endeavours...

a friendly bit of advice: try to stop taking yourself so seriously & learn to take other people's opinions and criticism for what they are... opinions and criticisms.. NOT insults... it's not binary LOVE/HATE (& I know social media and hyperbole are often to blame for this binary type of thinking) but there are almost always places in between - LOVE/LIKE/COULDN'T GIVE A DAMN/DISLIKE/HATE - and all places in between all of those...

I'm all for continuing this as a friendly, thoughtful and intelligent debate about the philosophy of 'modular synthesis' v ' synthesis with modules' and the usefulness/UI etc but maybe it should be somewhere else???

EDITED Sep 7th 2023, 15:36

pay for a unicorn account and it's there...

the only thing that's missing is that it doesn't reflect duplicates... for example if you have 3 xpo, or whatever module, it only shows 1

@pointandclicksystems - it's an opinion... not an insult...

they're just not in the spirit of 'modular synthesis'... they're 'synthesis with modules' to the extreme...

I actually think they're very clever, same as your module, well done for putting a full blown computer behind a panel!

but good luck to you... I hope you (and they) sell loads... just not to me...

Lots of interesting thoughts and good suggestions from @HGsynth.

But be careful, you should not ideally exceed 640mA on +12V and on -12V (per each row) in a RackBrute 6U, that is to say 80% of the 800mA available (for +12V and the same for -12V, there are four separate circuits of 800mA in two rows): and this in order to leave enough headroom for voltage peaks!
However the data sheet of the rack proposed here (in MG) indicates 743mA on the row2 (for +12V), which would be very risky...

Also, you only have 12 slots in the row2, and I see here 13 modules.
-- Sweelinck

physical location does not necessarilly need to reflect where power is plugged in... longer power cables are available (& easily made)

well it's kind of the same as those awful - ZOIA and Hector 'modules', isn't it...

I don't understand anyone wanting one of those either...

hmm - I have a couple of the smaller 10hp matrix mixers... tbh I'd rather have bigger ones... or at least a bigger one - completely due to ergonomics...

so maybe the problem is not that the matrix mixers are too big, it' s that the case is too small ... maybe it's time for another case!

The power thing is something you have to be aware of even with Mantis cases. The +12v power supply provides 3A, but split into three zones of 1A each. It's small enough space-wise, though, that it would take some really beefy modules to hit the max on any one zone.
-- PragmaticusMax

my big problem with the mantis is the -12v... but I am using it for video...

this happens a lot on all sizes of cases... a lot of small cases are underpowered...

the doepfer 9u cases are often underpwered... they have the same psu as the 6u (which the psu is fine for).. & the 9u are fine if you are using predominantly doepfer (or similar) analog modules, but start putting in small digital ones and...

Third, just a quick observation: you have a lot of oscillators and filters and not too much else, so it's not really a surprise that your patching is feeling repetative. You have many impressive sound sources (more than you may realize, with self-patching), but not much to play with them and manipulate them. I suppose you have the computer at your disposal (VCV rack has some great free modules), but I'm not seeing the midi 0r other interfaces to connect? In any case, you should consider a few additions (everyone likes buying more gear, right?). Your patching options open up exponentially as you get more modules and patchpoints.

this!!!

Consider for example, VCAs. You have the Quad VCA, which is a great module, but doesn't even give you enough channels for the voices you already have, and it certainly doesn't give you enough channels to play around with, such as modulating an LFO with another LFO to come up with more interesting cv. A Veils clone or Doepfer's quad mixer vca might be of more value than you realize.

get the veils clone... a much more versatile vca than the doepfer - not that the doepfer is not good, just less versatile...

I also always advocate for more modulation options, like Ochd or Batumi, so you can have motion. Finally, you're missing the essential architecture, utilities. There's been a few good analogies floating around the comments about utilities, but in the end, the unsung utilities are what enable you to actually use the big-ticket modules like VCOs.

an extra modulation source would be good - depending on how you are using Pams... if you are using that a lot for modulatiojn at the moment I'd prioritise a matrix mixer... probably less. expensive than a worthwhile an inexpensive modulation source

You might want to consider a mutli-utility module, such as a Disting EX or uOrnament and Crime, which gives you a taste of a lot of types of utility modules so you can figure out what's useful (again, VCV rack gives you plenty for free if you're already using a computer, but you need to be able to interact with it). For example, until you play with a clock divider, how would you know you can use it as a sub-osc? Or a that comparator can be amazing for taking LFOs and making rhythms, or just how fun switches can be?

I'd be more towards getting some basic utility modules - you can research more interestin things later... although something to interface with vcv rack is a great idea - es9 is probably best of breed - unless you already have a decent audio interface with ADAT I/O

In my mind, it's the ability to access these architectural circuits that makes modular unique. Plenty of standalone synths give you deep rawring sounds and luscious pads, but how many of them can create modulation and movement over time that can be controlled by other parameters? I'd say watch some videos about the modules you already have (look up that MATHS manual!) and about different utilities, and you'll get a good sense of where to go next with your patching.

architectural circuits ? more like the plumbing - no point in building a house (or any building) without the making sure the plumbing is properly there...

Edited: Just saw the link has already been posted. Ignore point 1.
-- HGsynth

classic cross posting!

actual link - cos jpgs are crap!!!

well I'd want more utilities - a matrix mixer would be a good start - and probably some attenuators....

seems far too sound source heavy... see my signature for hints...

patch ideas - work your way through the 'maths illustrated supplement', use the fx directly after the sound source and before filtering...

write a python script on that MBP - to generate random patches - if you search there's an example one floating about online... if you can read and do basic maths it'll be easy to adapt for your rack...

write some selection tables on a pad and use dice to generate patches...

mix outputs of sound sources, before doing anything else...

tune your sound sources to different intervals...

mix & modulate your modulation!

hope this helps!

EDITED Sep 4th 2023, 15:23

My theory is some modules (probably digital) have a spike in power usage when first booting up. During an initial "cold boot", not every digital module gets the surge of power it needs and it crashes during boot-up. The module is unresponsive and does not work at all in this case.
-- adamj

this is a 'known' feature of some electrical items... including modules... it's called 'inrush'

if it's only when plugged into certain places, I'd move it - possibly some busboards have limits...

I can see that its nice to have some portable gear, I don't consider my main case Portable cos its Blooming heavy but I'm working towards having a my Top Case and Percussion Case as being portable and easy to combine with a Beatstep Pro. This leaves my Main Case to be more Generative and experimental.

the original 6u case looks really portable to me...

I've had my mantis on planes, trains and buses many, many times with ease in the past...

eowave have a contact form on their website... strange that this module is not listed though!

don't do this & don't recommend anyone else do this..

you are likely to damage the uZeus...

Thanks JimHowell1970, I can understand better about TurinG Machine
Nice to hear about Pamela, it was another option in my mind...

good

But I'm learning all by myself and it's also hard to understand what I need o want because I still trying to route VCO and LFO ....

I have a sort of control of my system but it's sure that if it will be in your hand I will be surprised !

what exactly are you having problems with??? feel free to ask...

I started being more cognizant of function overlap. No need to get a module, no matter how pretty it is, if all it does is perform the same function as a module I already own.

to a large extent this is true, especially of big shiny expensive modules... but functional overlap in utilities is handy... multiple vcas, mults, mixers, logic, clock dividers etc are extremely useful! especially once you've grown beyond a few voices... and are starting to look at multiple layers of control... not just controlling the shape, panning and sound of notes, but also controlling sections of 'songs' - bring in this voice for this section, add this effect for a bar every 4 bars...

In the beginning we're understandably a bit voracious, but the more we add on the table, the more discriminating gourmet we become.

-- Sweelinck

Never more true words, I am definitley becoming a discriminating gourmet, I even feel like my module-buying is slowly coming to an end.... Shocking I know

-- wishbonebrewery

this is very true for most people - almost all new modules are combinations or extrapolations of existing modules, that to a large extent can be patched up from what you have (if you have the basic building blocks of synthesis in your rack and not just shiny expensive do it all modules) - there's the odd one that innovates massively, but they are very uncommon amd not necessarily that useful...

I'm definitely in a similar position regarding audio modules - there are a few things I would like to add in the future, but no real urgency... an extra oscillator (a duplicate of one I already have - to use as a 2 oscillator voice), a control surface (possibly a tnsm or a tetrapad/tete or similar) and then it's just a few relatively simple utilities... another matrix mixer, a vc polarizer, maybe a couple of submixers

the same can almost be said for video too... I know almost exactly what I want to be able to do, that I can't already do... but again no real rush... some/most/all of it is doable with modules that are either currently available, or (hopefully) will be soon... it's just having the spare cash (if you thought audio modular was expensive... take a look at analog video modular)... and I have no real need for HD - I kind of like the retro SD vibe...

I do like a bit of DIY though - so this may continue - unless/until my eye sight gets too bad... I do want to finish my backlog though... but all of that is smd (that I don't really like) and have been putting off for a long time...

Basically it's 10 3u frames in 5 rows. (2x 84hp wide and 15u height)

this way i can also fit 19"outboard or a 500 rack inside.
-- ak47exe

that's a decent size and layout!

What did change for you when you switched to a bigger setup?

longer cables & layout - see above... you may find that you want to use your current 6u 104hp case as a control skiff in front if the 15u is vertical - I find that I prefer sequencers, controllers, end of chain mixer etc are best horizontal and at the front

Do you work differently?

not really, more an extrapolation of what I was doing with a smaller case... more voices to patch (potentially) - use more utilities to make the most of modulation (multing, combining, inverting, attenuating etc) so less modulation sources can be used to modulate more modules... with related modulation... so things fit together better...

a bigger case also opens up different lavels of control... for example vcas are no longer just for modulation and note shaping... they are now also for gain control over time (ie autonated mixing) - which is i suppose a different way of working - still working on this

one thing I do have that's really useful in this size & bigger cases & with larger numbers of voices is a sinfonion... really handy for keeping things in key and supplying chordal notes on top of 3-4 'melodic/bass' voices - also really helps in terms of arrangement - as you can alter the octave ramge of voices...

also a bigger mixer is useful - I'm using a tesseract tex-mix - currently with 12 mono channels and 4 stereo channels

Do you work on patches for a longer time than in a small case?

probably - they take longer to patch - and take longer to finesse

Is it somehow harder or more easy to build a sound?

the same... there are just more modules to choose from...

Was it a good step or do you regret it it any way?

more choice is good... more voices are good... so a good step...

2 possibilities from what I can see

1 the output level of the gate is not enough to open the envelope

2 the length of the gate is too short to open the envelope

you'll need to check the output level of the gate in the manual... and cross reference it with the doepfer module

adjusting the length of the gate on the west pest is addressed on page 16 of the pdf manual

by 10 x 84hp do you mean 10u or 30u?

if 10u:

it's not really a much bigger case than the one you already have... only 60hp more for 3u modules + a 1u row

is this in addition to the 6u 104hp case you already have or a replacement? as an addition it's fine - although I'd probably go for a 104hp case so they can be arranged better and not be ciffering widths, if it's a replacement, then there's not a lot of extra space to grow into - so the next case will be wanted/needed sooner rather than later

if 30u:

I really wouldn't want a monolithic 30u x 84hp rack...

I'd go wider and lower - I have, effectively, 18u * 188hp - made up of 4 cases (2 * 9u 104hp, 2 * 9u 84hp) so that the lower 2 are near horizontal and the upper 2 are near vertical... this is much easier to deal with than 30u straight up imo - so I'd halve it vertically and double the width to give 15u 168hp - it's also better for module arrangement - I kind of follow the arp 2600 layout & that works quite well

There is something wrong with the Screenshot thing!

-- Hikove

maybe, but what??

it'll really help if you describe what's going wrong - not just "Houston, we have a problem!"

thanks! really clear!
just because I'm thinking to find another module....
what can be interesting to add to my setup?

I was thinking about the Turing machine module....

I like drones, I have Microcosm pedal connected and a delay

-- centecente

turing machines are great - but they need to be clocked and they need to be quantized, if you want to use them for pitch with other sequencers that are quantized... so it might mean that you need more than just one module - ie the module you want and the modules that are needed to support it...

if what you want is 'looped quantized stepped random voltages' for generating 'pseudo-random' melodies - then it might be worth looking at a Pams New (or Pro) Workout - they can both do that - amongst a lot of other things including clock functions (master, division, multiplication, euclidean), logic, gates, envelopes etc - the screen on the Pro is better from all accounts and it has a lot more functionality - it's a module you'll grow into, if you don't mind the menu diving (which isn't that bad really, quite shallow, but a bit tedious - iirc you can save and recall presets - so that may help)

I'd think carefully about what you are missing in your patches - ie I want to do this, but I can't because I don't have that functionality in my case... note these omissions down - and then prioritise them before searching for and ultimately buying new modules

should work fine... as long as the voltage is high enough and the signal is as long as you want it to be...

if the module's expecting a trigger/gate it's probably expecting a threshold to be reached to apply the accent and a drop below that threshold to stop applying the accent...

not sure how the velocity is done in the beatstep pro - I've never used it on mine - but I suspect that it just outputs a voltage based on the max output / the value of the velocity... and then turn off once the step is over... so effectively a gate at the level specified by the velocity value

shouldn't hurt anyway - give it a try!! - it's all just control voltage

google translate:

"Hello everyone, in my Doepfer chain I have inserted the Delay 2hp module...but the Delay response I got didn't satisfy me, I struggle to obtain repeat effects...has this happened to you too? I think to replace with 2hp Verb"

delays usually require feedback to produce more than 1 repeat - try turning the feedback up or addressing it with CV...

For an external sequencer, regardless of the size of your setup, BeatStep Pro is a great solution.

indeed it is! and it's a keeper - ie it's always useful no matter how big your rack gets to... currently I predominantly use mine for sequencing song part/chord progression changes on my sinfonion - clocked from the sinfonion...

get a mantis - easily portable - I've travelled a lot with mine on planes (perfectly sized for hand lugggage), trains and buses and used to live on the 2nd floor (or 3rd if you're american) with no lift... and that's with just the standard tiptop case - there's a 3rd party briefcase that's more rugged if you're worried about it!

then you'll have plenty of space to add modules without sacrificing others - at least until the mantis is full!

OK...

1 get a bigger case - small cases are very often a false economy... as you will end up buying another case within a few weeks or months... better to start off with that slightly bigger case - a tip top mantis is an excellend starter case and one of the best bangs for money in eurorack (hp/cost/manufacturer reputation/decent power)

these tiny cases are great for mission specific roles when you know what you are doing, but at the moment neither of these appply to you

2. how are you going to plqy this? are you expecting to play it via a keyboard or from a DAW? then you are missing the midi to cv module you need... only 1/2 the module is included in the case - you still need the cv output part... Pams includes some random sequence generation, amongst other things (rtfm), but it's likely that sooner or later and probably sooner you'll want to be able to create a sequence - and there's no space left in the case for that... NB there are external sequencers - maybe one of these would be a good idea...

3. in a case this small there's not really enough space for multiple voices - something will be missing... a filter for the dixie for example... stick to one voice and what's needed to support it rather than trying to do too much in too small a case...

4. again in a small case there is no space for overlap when not needed - the functionality of the EG can be covered by pams (again rtfm)

I would either just get a bigger case and start with a few modules - a sound source, a sound modifier, a modulation source, a way to play and a way to listen - which in this case may just be Pams, plaits (you'll likely only get a clone - ALA for example), an effect mdoule and a headphone output: Pams covers (to some extent) the way to play and the modulation source, plaits is the sound source (including vca, filter and has some internal modulation based on the envelope sent into the level) etc

OR

ignore the size of the case for now - start with a 9u (or 10u, if you must have 1u) 104hp or bigger case in modulargrid and put the modules you really want in it (taking into account the functionality that you want - ie 2 voices) and try to work out the modules that you need to support those and then show us the result for critique - then buy a case that is appropriate for the modules and leaves 20%+ free for expansion so that you are not going to need to buy another case almost immediately when you see that module that you need a week after you've finished buying all the modules that you think you want and the modules that we've pointed out that you need in order to support them properly

and take a look at my signature... spend a decent amount of time thinking about it and how it applies to you and the modules you think you want...

EDITED Aug 26th 2023, 07:43

Thanks Jim, there are somes great ideas there.

no problem... just hope it helps...

Can you recommend a power supply for the Data? Building a case isn't a problem.

hmm... depends, really... I like the befaco power supplies - I have a lot of the excalibus ones (built are available, but they are a really easy, if tedious DIY build - 26 power headers with 16 pins each!!!) - they are really quiet in my experience and I use them for video as well as audio - which has a much higher need for quiet at much higher frequencies (MHz, not just KHz) but they're a bit big for a case just for a DATA - excalibus is meant for powering 6u/84hp... they do a smaller power supply too, but

much dirtier, but ok for audio I've used frequency central ones - they are small and cheap, but they need a deep case... also easy to DIY... if you DIY and source all the parts yourself from tayda it should work out at about 50 quid including the wall wart... no 5v though - and the power stats on here for the DATA look wrong compared to the mordax site - the FC power supplies really only supply 500mA - so 400mA or less in practice (I suspect DATA has some inrush needs)

otherwise maybe a uZeus... but they use the panel as a heatsink - and recommend metal rails to dissipate the heat - which the others don't need so you could get away with screwing any panels straight into the wood - I did this for a while before building my first DIY case - I had a really dodgy 9u held together by modules and blank panels - no rails, no sides, no back - literally just modules, blank panels and 4 bits of wood

The step8 is primarily used as a sequencer but since getting the Rene it hasn't been getting used so much but it's still used as more of a cv source than anything else.

OK I'd be tempted to use it as a second sequencer to transpose the rene (you'll need. that precision adder back in the case though)

TBH I never consider the rack to be lacking mixing capabilty other than fx sends etc

that's kind of what I suspected after I looked again at your rack and noticed that the erica output was also a mixer!

fx sends = matrix mixer... maybe a stereo one - I usually use my matrix mixers for combining modulation souorces to get more complex modulation sources though... which is one more reason to make that expander case a bit bigger than you think you need just for the

EDITED Aug 25th 2023, 17:23

I'm down for the tex mix but I'm not going to be buying a new case. What can I lose to make room for one?
-- padmasan

well that's a difficult one - I've only ever sold one module - because I really didn't like it and always added cases - I've built 4 cases myself - have you considered that??

tbh - I didn't notice the black output had mixing capabilities when I initially scanned your rack!

do you think you actually have a mixing problem?

I went back and re-read your first post...

what don't you like about your workflow? could it be solved with some longer patch cables?

have you tried both of the module arrangement strategies that I outlined in my first post?

have you tried taking all the modules out of the case putting a single voice in and working ou the best workflow for that, for you and then adding another and repeating etc etc

I'd move the mixer down and the squid salmple up one row, same with the shelves - maybe consider taking data out and into a small case on it's own... I know you said no to another case, but I'm just suggesting a 16-20hp satellite.... 5 bits of wood a few screws and a power supply - 50-60 quid... not another mantis!

that would allow you enough space to add back in some (or all - your little satellite case would need too be a little bit bigger) of the bottom row...

how are you using your step8 - as a sequencer or as a modulation source? I'd probably move this down too... same with Pams...

Can you recommend such a mixer? I have the Addac and Tritone in the spare row. Should these be incorporated.
I thought I was doing ok on the mixer front

well, there's ok and there's OK!!! hehehe

I use a tesseract modular tex-mix, which I like quite a lot - it's modular and expandable and has a decent range of features - all channels have panning, mutes, cue and effects send - mono channels also have vcas... it's also available both ready built and DIY (I like a bit of DIY & this DIY is easy - it's basically just the panel furniture) - you buy/build a master section (with the send/returns master out and headphone jack and groups of 4 channels, either mono or stereo, there are also direct output modules for connecting to your audio interface, for example... sends are mono/returns are stereo... but if you have a stereo channels module they can be patched to work in stereo (as the a send is only L & the B send is only R) - some people complain about a bit of bleed (which has never bothered me) but I have worked this out to be related to the sends, at least for me... muting a channel does not cut the send... this is a relatively inexpensive solution... it's just the one that I have and like working with, especially for the price! others to look at might be the befaco hexmix/hexpander, wmd performance mixer (if you can find one - may be a new version in the future from ammt) and the frap tools version (which is really a high end and high priced version of the tex-mix) never actually used any of these though - so can't really recommend any...

but saying that one of these probably doesn't replace any of your existing mixers, it'll just make how you use them different, they'll become sub- mixers...

good to see you've got a vcam - I don't have one but I do really like my matrix mixers!

I don't like having spare modules lieing about - I'd much rather have some blind panels in the cases - so I'd be buying another case about now and trying to work out how to join 3 mantises together... I'm sure there are some ideas in the mantis thread on modwiggler... this may actually help your issue too... some space between modules can help with workflow...
Not sure how the wife would feel about that and I can see the blinds being slowly replaced by modules.

well it's a good test of whether she's a keeper or not...

EDITED Aug 24th 2023, 12:31

And given the choice in excellent modules of about 4 to 8 HP I'm sure it will be a nice little companion for my synths in a few years or months. :)

I would also serioulsy consider larger modules than this - otherwise ergonomics will become an issue!

I've already orderd my next module: an envelope follower/gate.

I've got my eyes on a few sample & hold modules like the Doepfer A-118-2, Doepfer A-184-1 or the Erica Synths Pico LFO/S&H. I'll see what modules I'll want to/need connect to the S&H of my choosing.

Next might be an oscillator.
-- MeneerJansen

odd hp modules are a pita.... you end pu with gaps... personally I try to avoid abything less than 4hp and prefer bigger modules where possible... much easier to get at the knobs then!

unfortunately discontinued...

-- JimHowell1970

Life is very tough!!
-- troux

nah - I got one already - at least in the world of clock divider ownership - life is sweet!!! hahaha

So I bought the Rides In The Storm 'SED' filter. At first I wanted the copy of the famous Moog modular filter from Behringer (the 904A) but it was sold out everywhere. And it's meant for the typical way that the Moog modular system of the late 60's works. Hmmmm. Module after module appeared not to work the way I thought/expected, so I went safe and bought 2 modules (EG and Filter) from the same manufacturer.

I'd grab a midi->cv module soonish - using v/oct for the cutoff is a classic technique...

I like the Dreadbox 'Eudemonia' 24 dB/oct filter too, but I read in it's manual that the CV needs to be operated at -5 V to +5 V (which is the standard for an LFO, not an envelope generator). The other input is labelled 1V/oct which I think is meant for keyboard tracking, not an envelope (the 'SED''s got both!). Getting into modular is hard if you ain't got no experience yet.

see above re: v/oct...

I'm not sure I'd have got into modular just to get a filter - there are 'pedals' that can do that - especially for the moog filter - a moogerfooger lpf would have done the job - expensive and only available on the used market in hardware form - but may have alleviated the modular bug/gas! also I think dreadbox make or made some standalone filters and then there's teh obvious sherman filter bank etc...

re the voltage mismatch: this is what offset modules are for - something like the happy nerding 3 * mia, for example - attenuate/attenuvert and offset... it's why we keep saying utilities are so important... (see signasture)

Anyway, I'm more than happy with the two. They have a ton of functionality, some of it a bit "under the hood". For many modules the manual ain't very good/informative. I might post my personals "how to" I wrote down in a text document on the two.

Gonna buy me an evelope follower with Gate functionality soon so I can use the filter with an audio siganl (like an auto-Wah).
-- MeneerJansen

envelope follower with gate is a good idea - always useful - you might want more envelopes then though!!!

ok why are the spare modules not in the case (other than obvious space issues)?

I generally follow the layout of an arp 2600, but with utilities spread all over.. where they make sense...

so sound sources (& any inputs), filters, modulation, effects, control, final output mixing...

start top left, finish bottom right... this works for me in my main audio cases... I basically have sound sources on the top row, modulation on the next row down (with some filters etc to the right), filters on the next row down, percussion next row (waveshapers, logic etc to right), sequencing to the left on 2 rows and on the right effects above end of chain mixer

another way to look at it is to group by voices... starting at the left with oscillators, but you generally still end up with sequencing (control) at bottom left and end of chain mixer at bottom right... if of course you have an end of chain mixer, which it doesn't look like

if you have the top mantis vertical and the bottom one horizontal I'd move the data to the top case... same with the squid salmple...

I don't like having spare modules lieing about - I'd much rather have some blind panels in the cases - so I'd be buying another case about now and trying to work out how to join 3 mantises together... I'm sure there are some ideas in the mantis thread on modwiggler... this may actually help your issue too... some space between modules can help with workflow...

EDITED Aug 22nd 2023, 18:36

That's where the NCOM comes in @JimHowell1970 😆
-- troux

indeed, but a bit pricey for a basic clock divider for creating a sub - I have a dreadbox div - that works perfectly for -1 & -2 8ves & cost almost nothing... unfortunately discontinued...

I was reflecting on my NCOM answer and was thinking that this is where we're missing @Lugia nowadays. If he were here he'd be advising you to build your own low bass by mixing in multiple oscillators that are slighly detuned to get that super fat sound. He's got a post somewhere about this (or maybe a few) that I'll go try and dig up.
-- troux

yes that's how to get a 'phat' bass - mix slightly detuned oscillators together before filtering them... but it won't give you a sub bass - the easy way to that is a clock divider...

you meant with one of them, wrap all the DC OUTs of the MW supply (-12 / + 12 / COM-GND / +5V)? or each of them?

-- rlanguillat

I'm pretty sure @Lugia just meant the cable from the brick to the case...

(@Lugia.s not been active here for a while)

Thanks for the info. I'm reading as much as I can 'bout modular but stumble upon a standard problem every now and then.

Strange thing is that a lot of manuals of modules do not mention the voltages of CV in and/or out (the sometimes frowned upon Behringer does have excellent tables w/ all info you need for instance).

but almost definitely because it was copied from the original...

Is there an "unwritten law" or standard like 0 to 10 V for filter CV in if not otherwise specified? I mean: even if you have a utility module, don't you have to know the exact voltage specifications of the modules to patch 'm together via a utility module?
-- MeneerJansen

not really, the only things that are "standard" are dimensions and power... and even then...

reality is you don't, most of the time I want attenuated modulation anyway... less is more etc

yes, kind of... and kind of a common question... but...

you won't do any damage sending 10V into the eudemonia, what will happen is the envelope will be cut off at the top and the filter will never "close" properly

the solution is to use a negative offset of 5v... these are commonly found in attenuverters... or if you have it, maths - channel 2 or 3 have offsets built in - see the manual for which is 5v and which it 10v... other modules that also have this functionality (off the top of my head) are mutable shades and happy nerding 3 x mia...

this is why you NEED utility modules - they solve little problems that crop up all the time...

see my signature for a cheat sheet of how to get the most versatility from your modular for the least expense...

hope this helps!

Hi mate. As waveshaper I have picked the Joranalogue Audio Design Fold. Which mixer and filter can you recommend. End of chain will be a Midas Venice mixing desk.
The rythm sends midi clock to the beat step and the beat step sending clock to the Modul( Hope that is working like that)
-- Philekkk

well definitely an audio submixer - for combining the 2 vcos before hitting a filter - slightly detune one of them firat, & preferably a matrix mixer - add a nice quad lfo/envelope generator (zadar/batumi etc etc) to make the most of this for deriving complex modulations... but I'd also want at least one module like a happy nerding 3 x mia particularly for cv mixing/offset

I'd add a PNW (inexpensive used) or PPW to add clock divisions and a load of other features etc - will also help on the sync front - you might find you are better off with an expander for pams (to allow clocking from the rythm) and then clock the beatstep from Pams

I'd also add a simple clock divider as you can get square wave sub octaves out of it - /2 = -1ve, /4 = -2ve etc...

switches of all kinds are useful in live situations, as are 'scene controllers' - like Music Thing Modular Control

filters? I think they're very personal, and really you are only going to get recommendations of people's favourites (or whatever is trendy that week) - at least in terms of specific modules... personally I like Doepfer (for both utility modules and filters) as they are reasonably priced and do what they sau they do...

I've always liked veils - I only have OGs - no mk2s - I'd go for mk2s, or clones, over anything else now though... clean enough, dirty enough, enough extraneous features...

in the mean time you can always type shift register in the search field - that works!

the mini midi breakout module (only 2hp) has multiple i/o (3 of each iirc) so can be used by both the es9 and the disting simulatneously, you just need the right ribbon cables and the right midi adapters

otherwise you could make custom cables to connect midi cables to idc conndectors... but the module solution above is probably a lot easier and cheaper!

the wmd modules may be difficult to source, they closed, but have re-started as ammt (I think that's correct), but I haven't seen any modules from the new company yet, I know the plan is to re-issue newer versions of some of the wmd modules

you should be able to pick them up used, but they may be expensive! or there may be a few left in stores!

you might want another filter, a waveshaper, a simple mixer, a clock divider, an end of chain mixer (with send/return) etc to get the most out of these modules...

how are you intending to mix the output of the modular and the analog rytm...

can the analog rytm be externally clocked?