Send/return module as line input/output ?

Hi,
Is there any reason not to use send/return module as line level input/output ?
As far as, in my case, is not needed the use of both of the two to three fonctions simultaneously, it can merge them in 4 or 6hp and that can solve space in the rack.

Why not ?

it really depends on the send/return module - most are intended for guitar effects pedals - which expect guitar volumes - which are much lower than line level...

why do you think you need a line level output? a lot of mixers/audio interfaces can easily handle modular levels - possibly with just a bit of attenuation...

as for line input - all you need is a amplifier - some vcas can do this, veils for example - but most can't

maybe you could post a link to the rack?

Thank Jim !
I need a solution to :
1. input my studio mixer bus out (to send external synths to my modular).
2. lower the modular output to get into my studio mixer but in fact especially for headphones : stéréo out 1/4 jack (to not need any adaptor) TRS if available and a 'volume' knob.
3. send/return - send modular signal into a Beebo or an Organelle and returning with eurorack level. The Organelle output level is so low that i think it might be guitar level, perhaps so a 'gain in' knob can be very useful.

Don't know if it helps but here's my rack :
https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_1962355.jpg

I haven't decided on modules 'Befaco Out V2' and 'knob.farm Ferry' yet. In fact, I am a beginner so if you have any advice, maybe a type of module is missing?

Any suggestion ?

EDITED Jul 2nd 2022, 13:16

Tex mix Return A can be configured for line return (it‘s basically a stereo in with simple volume control). Has 1 Master out, 1 configurable ouput (Seperate Bus or Master/ Cue Bus CF) +Headphone out.
Also it‘s a very compact fully expandable mixing solution.
Yes it‘s more than 6hp but it also has your mixing fully covered and won‘t be thrown into the gutter when you expand.
Thank you @JimHowell1970 for the recommendation.
Also dirt cheap. Might suit your needs and even go way beyond.

Edit:
Forgot about direct out‘s expansion which you could also use to go to your main Mixer if you wish.

EDITED Jul 2nd 2022, 15:27

Just a little chip in...
+1 on the Befaco OUT https://www.modulargrid.net/e/befaco-out-v3 Its especially well-priced if you fancy a bit of soldering and will take you down to Line-Level from Modular.

Thank Jim !
I need a solution to :
1. input my studio mixer bus out (to send external synths to my modular).

I didn't see a vca in your rack - I would get a quad cascading one (also doubles as a mixer) that actually amplifies (most vcas do not) - mutable veils has always been my first choice and you may be able to find one new still, otherwise a used one, or an intellijel quad will do...

2. lower the modular output to get into my studio mixer but in fact especially for headphones : stéréo out 1/4 jack (to not need any adaptor) TRS if available and a 'volume' knob.

have you tried just going straight from your eurorack mixer? is there clipping? if so attenuators or an output module will work - it'll probably be fine just going straight into your mixer with the appropriate cables - 1/8"->1/4" - I did this for a long time with a basic 15 year old 10 channel yamaha mixer

3. send/return - send modular signal into a Beebo or an Organelle and returning with eurorack level. The Organelle output level is so low that i think it might be guitar level, perhaps so a 'gain in' knob can be very useful.

AISynthesis make an inexpensive pedal interface and you can get 2 in 4hp, if you need that... they are reasonably simple DIY builds - you'll need appropriate cables though (see above)

Don't know if it helps but here's my rack :
https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_1962355.jpg

please post an actual link (the url) to your public rack - jpgs are next to useless - and there are almost 10k modules - so the chances that I (or anyone else) looking at your rack ad not knowing at least one module is pretty high...

I have both Befaco Out and Ferry and like them both. Yes, you can use Ferry's send as an output, or as Jim says above, just use your mixer or passive attenuators. But it is handy to have each of these modules. The 1/4" balanced outs/headphone and the cue feature on Out are all useful, while with Ferry you have to use adapter cables, but that lets Ferry be quite small. For the space these take up, the convenience wins for me. You have a number of much larger modules, and you might think carefully about each of those.

Thanks all of you for sharing experience.

@JimHowell1970 Here’s the url :
I have a field kit fx for vcas but since it’s a vca mixer they’re merged on the output.. however I may not realise how much I will miss vcas (what you see on the rack url is what I planned to get but haven’t filled all the space yet).
What is a « quad cascading one » ?
For trigger, pitch and gate I also have a keystep and an mpc one (as a midi interface with the rest of my studio for sequencing). I intend to be satisfied with it for the moment given the staggering sums involved in the transition to modular.

Regarding the connection of my system without attenuation to my studio mixer, my mixer is digital (presonus studiolive), so I avoid clipping at all costs then it leads me to always watch the vu-meter (which is right behind me). And, might be wrong but I think attenuators are kind of a second hand solution for my purpose, especially because the output issue comes from the need of headphones socket.

@Cangore thanks, I already took a look on that module and yes it could finally fix all of my needs. But i still expect to find finer solution. Now, regarding that perfection doesn’t exists and since I don’t own an es-9, an harvest man quad pedal send and a proper solution with input gain +30db, I should consider taking 10hp for that.

I have to confess that my case seems too be already too small… 😐

EDITED Jul 3rd 2022, 02:47

The mixer issue isn't so much digital vs analog as whether it can handle a hot signal, and I think most can. The Presonus Studio Live seems to have a gain control that can lower as much as -20dB, which should be enough (-13.5dB is what's needed). But I still think it's much easier to have an output module and not worry about any of this.

Your case is too small for the modules you have chosen (because you'll likely need more). You can do all right with a case of that size but it takes some experience to know what to choose for it, and even then, it will be limited.

I have a field kit fx for vcas but since it’s a vca mixer they’re merged on the output.. however I may not realise how much I will miss vcas (what you see on the rack url is what I planned to get but haven’t filled all the space yet).
What is a « quad cascading one » ?

you'll almost definitely need more vcas then... they are one of the most fundamental parts of a synthesizer... they are incredibly useful for modulation as well as audio - and being able to be used individually is very helpful

a quad cascading vca is 4 vcas that can be used as a mixer, but can also be split to use individually or severally - veils is a good example

For trigger, pitch and gate I also have a keystep and an mpc one (as a midi interface with the rest of my studio for sequencing). I intend to be satisfied with it for the moment given the staggering sums involved in the transition to modular.

sounds like a plan

Regarding the connection of my system without attenuation to my studio mixer, my mixer is digital (presonus studiolive), so I avoid clipping at all costs then it leads me to always watch the vu-meter (which is right behind me). And, might be wrong but I think attenuators are kind of a second hand solution for my purpose, especially because the output issue comes from the need of headphones socket.

doesn't the studiolive have a headphone socket? attenuators are always useful!

there's a great headphone module from alm busy circuits called hpo

@Cangore thanks, I already took a look on that module and yes it could finally fix all of my needs. But i still expect to find finer solution. Now, regarding that perfection doesn’t exists and since I don’t own an es-9, an harvest man quad pedal send and a proper solution with input gain +30db, I should consider taking 10hp for that.

the outputs from tex-mex are modular level... really your mixer should be fine...

I have to confess that my case seems too be already too small… 😐
-- Lijcke

unless you build in 30%+ for expansion they always do... hehehe

EDITED Jul 3rd 2022, 13:52

@plragde

The mixer issue isn't so much digital vs analog as whether it can handle a hot signal, and I think most can. The Presonus Studio Live seems to have a gain control that can lower as much as -20dB, which should be enough (-13.5dB is what's needed). But I still think it's much easier to have an output module and not worry about any of this.

Thanks, i didn't even seen that -20db on the pot..

@JimHowell1970

you'll almost definitely need more vcas then... they are one of the most fundamental parts of a synthesizer... they are incredibly useful for modulation as well as audio - and being able to be used individually is very helpful

I planned to get some attenuators yes, and i heard that Veils had amplifiers that actually amplify.
Ok, now what's the difference between unipolar attenuators and vcas (for which ones don't amplify) ? I ask because i'ld prefer add attenuverters if they can act like "bipolar" vcas..

doesn't the studiolive have a headphone socket? attenuators are always useful!
there's a great headphone module from alm busy circuits called hpo

Yes it has. But i leave my 32 tracks at home when I travel :)

the outputs from tex-mex are modular level... really your mixer should be fine...

Regarding all the comments, yes it should be fine.

Besides that, for the MI Stages, I wonder if the qienem firmware update allows the module to be used as 6 vcas.
Anyway it is a question that remains to be studied, and even if it means remedying it, perhaps it is desirable to solve my I/O issue at the same time. I understand your first comment better.

@JimHowell1970

you'll almost definitely need more vcas then... they are one of the most fundamental parts of a synthesizer... they are incredibly useful for modulation as well as audio - and being able to be used individually is very helpful

I planned to get some attenuators yes, and i heard that Veils had amplifiers that actually amplify.
Ok, now what's the difference between unipolar attenuators and vcas (for which ones don't amplify) ? I ask because i'ld prefer add attenuverters if they can act like "bipolar" vcas..

attenuators (unipolar) reduce the amount of the signal that is sent through them - according to a potentiometer (knob or trimmer)

attenuverters (bipolar) reduce the amount of the signal that is sent through them and invert the signal (before 12 o'clock) - according to a potentiometer (knob or trimmer)

vcas - generally behave like unipolar attenuators - some can amplify too - and are voltage controlled and may or may not have knobs to adjust this

bipolar vcas - are similar to unipolar vcas - but can invert the signal sent through them

personally I don't have any bipolar vcas - I have an inverter that I can use (malekko invmix) if I want an inverted vca - they can also be used as ring modulators - but I have a dedicated one of those and one in a disting so no real need...

the other modules are all incredibly useful and fundamental to modular synthesis

doesn't the studiolive have a headphone socket? attenuators are always useful!
there's a great headphone module from alm busy circuits called hpo

Yes it has. But i leave my 32 tracks at home when I travel :)

the a mixer with a headphone amp or an output module with headphones - personally I would go for the alm hpo as it is 2hp...

the outputs from tex-mex are modular level... really your mixer should be fine...

Regarding all the comments, yes it should be fine.

Besides that, for the MI Stages, I wonder if the qienem firmware update allows the module to be used as 6 vcas.

I just had a quick check and you can apparently get it to behave like 3 vcas - but they're not really that great - I would seriously suggest investing in a quad cascading vca - they are an incredibly useful investment

Anyway it is a question that remains to be studied, and even if it means remedying it, perhaps it is desirable to solve my I/O issue at the same time. I understand your first comment better.
-- Lijcke

nb. the tex-mix has both headphone outs and vcas on the mono-channels, BUT it is wise to remember that vcas are useful not only for audio, but also for modulation and it is not uncommon to use multiple vcas on the same signal path - for example both note shaping and volume over time

hope this helps