Eurorack as expansion for my synth?

Hello there,

My first post here. Been lurking around and like the positive atmosphere.

To get straight to the point: I've read the post "Why to NOT get into modular synthesis" and I fall into Category 0 called "not having sufficient capital to sustain a build", ha ha. ;) I've studied various options and initially the best one for me (to dip my toes in) seemed to be the Behringer 104 case. However, it's less than 4 cm (1.5") deep which rules out even B. own CP1A power supply (!). The price for a recommended case of 2 x 3U high and 104 HP wide rises exponentially then. Even for a humble 104 HP setup to get started.

I'm a synth hobbyist (I don't make actual finished "music" or songs): I like to experiment. I hate DAW's and even recording DAW-less is too much hassle for me. I own a few cheap but very sweet synths that are dear to me.

However, at the moment I'm suffering, yet again, from a serious case of GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) and I'm barely able to control myself from buying more synths. Most of 'm can do only one trick that the synths in my modest, small, collection can't. It's getting frustrating that I have to shelf some of 'm. But I'll never sell 'm: I'd rather die. Each one fills a certain "gap" or "need" (such as: polyphony, organ, freak machine, quick 'n dirty to setup, drum machine, sampler, choose pre-set and have fun, super portable sit on the couch, etc.).

Anyway, I'd like to finally own me a fat 24 dB/oct filter (like the one in a MiniMoog) but I'll be damned to buy a Behringer Model D only for the filter. I'd like to experiment a bit with sample and hold (The Who anyone?) but I'll be damned to buy an MS-20 or Behringer K-2 for only that (I'm almost unable to control myself concerning the K-2 though).

I'm jealous of people who can buy a small, single, module that'll expand one's setup with functionality like that. And use it in combination with other stuff without shelving one or two synths because of the lack of space in the work/hobby area.

What I'd like to have is a modular setup with at least a Midi to CV module to trigger an EG (I've got more than enough Midi sequencers and Midi keyboards already, I don't want a Arturia Keystep). And then I'd like to input the sound from a synth's oscillator into a modest modular rack to route it to, say, a filter w/ an EG. I don't know for sure if that's possible. I was thinking about the following for example:

• 24 dB/oct low pass Filter:
  • Behringer 904A filter (said to be like the Moog, out of stock!)
    Or:
  • Behringer 1006 filter
    Or:
  • Dreadbox Eudemonia filter
• Envelope generator:
  • Behringer envelope generator 1003
    Or:
  • Rides In The Storm FEG envelope generator
• And (if I need it?):
  • External audio input module/attenuator. Does anybody recommend one that I can buy at Thomann?

I'd like to do the following:

• Connect my synths' audio OUT (which is triggered on/off by it's own keyboard) (maybe attenuated by my audio device or mixer) into a Eurorack Filter's IN.
• Connect my synths Midi OUT to a Eurorack Midi-to-CV module.
• Connect the Midi-to-CV gate (or trigger?) OUT to the EG's gate IN.
• Connect the EG's OUT (is that CV?) to the Filter CV IN.
• Route the Filter audio OUT to an amplifier or audio device.
• Use my synth w/ a different Filter that way.

I don't know for sure if I can use, for example, the Gate OUT of the Cre8audio Nifty Case to trigger an EG (the Nifty manual says you can, on page 6), or that I need a Midi-to-CV module like the Behringer CM1A with a trigger OUT.

I also don't know if I definitely need an attenuator. And I don't know if the Filter modules that I listed really have that "Moog" sound. On a MiniMoog (and any other synth I have) there a knob marked "Intensisty" or "Amount" which controls how intense the filter cutoff is controlled by the EG. I.e. when Int. is set to 0 then the filter is on but not controlled by the EG. Is that an attenuator? Or does the Int. knob on a regular synth amplify (not attenuate) the CV from your EG?

I do know that the Cre8audio Nify Case has too little HP's to most people's liking, but it has on-board Midi-to-CV and a VCA so it can be directly connected to a mixer or audio device. That'll save me HP's and money. What I also like about it is its portability: could be the ideal friend for a synthesizer.

And after dipping my toes into modular I might even buy me a proper case if I get addicted (sell the Nifty Case).

To make a long story short: I'd like to expand a synth with a modest Eurorack setup. Is that doable?

EDITED Aug 6th 2023, 19:08

Sorry if you've meantioned it, and I've missed it whilst reading through. Are you looking to purchase solely from Thomann?

I have a vague recollection that the intensity knob on a minimoog is what is normally called resonance on most filter modules... including modules that are modelled after moog filters...

I'm pretty sure that the nifty case does not include a vca... iirc it includes a very basic midi->cv functionality, a dual 1/8" -> 1/4" converter and a multiple (to make a copy of a signal)...

most envelope generators work best with gates... sustain (the S in ADSR) controls really only control the level of sustain not the lehgth - so need the gate to be held open to actually sustain

yes basically the intensity knob is an attenuator which controls the amount of the envelope is applied to the intensity (resonance)

almost always when you see an A in modular it's attenuation, even if the module calls itself an amplifier - VCAs for example - you need to read the module specifications as to how much gain is involved - most VCAs for example are unity gain, and as such are effectively voltage controlled attenuators...

you may or may not need an output module or attenuator to put between the output of the filter and the nifty case output... it really depends what you are sending it to... a lot of modernish mixers and audio interfaces can cope with modular levels - I often used to use a yamaha mg10 and could plug straight into it... if you experience clipping then you do, if you don't you don't!

you will almost definitely want to amplify the output from any other synth though... as this will be at line level which is considerably lower than modular level... and filters will expect modular levels and generally like to be driven a bit... again research, research, research - cheaper ones can be a bit on the noisy side... the doepfer a-119 for instance is known for it's grittiness to put it mildly... the befaco instrument interface is quite quiet... also available as DIY...

if you get an input module with an envelope follower built into it, both the modules I've mentioned do, you may be able to get away without midi-CV or an envelope module - just feed the envelope follower output into the resonance input of the filter...

I wouldn't recommend anything you've listed above though... none of them are really keepers...

I'd suggest doing more research (it's one of the major ways of not spending money in eurorack) to find the actual modules that you really want - this involves google and finding, for example, the best moog-like filter (it'll be a low pass ladder filter with 34db/oct iirc), then going to youtube and watching demos of different ones to work out which you like the best and then preferably going to an actual shop to demo one before you buy, or buying a used one (here and modwiggler are good for that) - don't just buy something because it's cheap - there are reasons why some modules are cheap... doepfer are reasonably inexpensive (only a little bit more expensive than the b-compnay) and they have a good reputation, unlike the b-company...

for example this module https://www.modulargrid.net/e/ajh-synth-minimod-transistor-ladder-filter is supposed to be a very good modular version of a minimoog filter - it may be available at thomann, but there are many other modular specialist stores in the EU & I'd buy one from them if possible, or get a used one... there's a list of modular stores in the EU (and worldwide) that stock eurorack modules and accessories in the stickies of the 1u and 3u subforum on modwiggler... you'll get much better service with any of these than with the bigger box shifters like thomann or musicstore... and prices are generally about the same...

if you buy used and then decide to sell it it may only cost you the postage (as you'll probably be able to sell it for a similar price to what you paid for it) - most modules will depreciate by 20-30% once they are out of the store, cheaper ones may be very difficult to resell for even 50%... same goes for cases... if you do buy used from a private seller on a website - make sure not to use friends and family (and take the small hit on cost)

this module may also be worth looking at: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/doepfer-a-120

same for envelope generators - you probably want an ADSR type...

most of us suffer from GAS from time to time - although it gets less and less... there's a reason that they call eurorack eurocrack...

EDITED Aug 6th 2023, 18:21

@danlegg and @JimHowell1970 thank you for your replies.

I'd preferably buy from companies like Thomann because I'm familiar with 'm (in the sense that I've bought from 'm before).

I didn't know that line level is considerably lower than modular level, I was afraid that I'd "blow up" the modules with output from a synth. Good to know that I sooner need Gain instead of an attenuator.

One of the filters I considered is, indeed, the Doepfer A-120. I saw reviews on Youtube about the Behringer 904A and they said that is was a reasonable replica of the orig. 904A filter (24 dB/oct) from good ol' Moog. If I'm not mistaken then a MiniMoog has sort of the same filter but it appears to, partly, thank it's wonderful sound due to a slightly overdriven input from the oscillator. So maybe I'll have to go for the Doepfer: a brand well respected in the Eurorack community if I'm not mistaken.

I'll do some research on buying second hand in Holland.

Unfortunatly all physical music stores in the part of Holand where I lve have closed. And when they were still open I wasn't impressed by the people working there in the end. So listening to the mudule in question is almost out of the question.

I'll do some more research w/ the help of the extra info I've got now! Thanks.

To get the 'classic' Moog filter you definity need a 24dB/Oct 24dB/Oct transistor ladder filter. As @JimHowell1970 said the MiniMoog Model D labeled 'Resonance' as 'Emphasis'. There are quite a few really good filters that would suite. If you search transistor ladder filter one from AJH Synth and Dopfer (both respected brands) will show up, but so will others like something modular (I dont know them personally, they seem to be a relitively new manufacture) and Fully Wired Electronics (but I'll leave my personal bias which is infavour of FWE for now).

It's a shame that is the case with your local physical music stores, its somewhat similar where I am, so I completely undertsand wanting to shop with retailers you know and have dealt with before.

No Problem

I know what you mean... familiarity etc... but I can tell you from experience that MIDI Amsterdam, The Music House (Utrecht) and ModularSynthesizers.nl are all great to buy from both online and in the case of the first 2 in store - not sure about the music house, as they were threatening to get out of modular (check their website)... but they were great... having spent thousands between them...

the only issue I have with modularsynthesizers.nl (den hague) is that they want you to make an appointment, so I never went there...

If I'm not mistaken then a MiniMoog has sort of the same filter but it appears to, partly, thank it's wonderful sound due to a slightly overdriven input from the oscillator.

something like that - the architecture of a minimoog is iirc: 1-3 vcos -> a cp3 mixer (which has some gain) -> filter -> vca

if you want to get a cp3 like mixer then the AISynthesis Harmonic Mixer is the one I'd go for...

I'll do some research on buying second hand in Holland.

I'd extend to EU in general... on here we have a good marketplace & good and bad transactions threads on the forum (so you can to some extent verify sellers) and on modwiggler you have to have at least 100 posts to create a for sale thread - as I said use PayPal (but not friends and family) and you are insured anyway! but there should also be a local facebook buy/sell group (and if not a EU one) etc

Unfortunatly all physical music stores in the part of Holand where I lve have closed. And when they were still open I wasn't impressed by the people working there in the end. So listening to the mudule in question is almost out of the question.

if it was Key Music - I understand completely!!

Just FYI, MIDI Amsterdam used to have a habit of listing items online as "in stock" even if they weren't. Don't know if they still do that, but I remember ordering one hard to find item that they had listed on their website as "in stock", I didn't receive a shipping notice after several days so I sent them an email to check on it. Two more days passed with no response so I canceled my order and bought it somewhere else. It was pretty clear at that point that they didn't actually have it in stock. I've heard of other people having similar experiences.

Just FYI, MIDI Amsterdam used to have a habit of listing items online as "in stock" even if they weren't. Don't know if they still do that, but I remember ordering one hard to find item that they had listed on their website as "in stock", I didn't receive a shipping notice after several days so I sent them an email to check on it. Two more days passed with no response so I canceled my order and bought it somewhere else. It was pretty clear at that point that they didn't actually have it in stock. I've heard of other people having similar experiences.
-- adaris

actually I don;t think I've ever bought anything off them online - only in store... always best to phone them...

One thought to keep your GAS in check is the fact that if you buy a less expensive module as a means to approximate what you really want, it will cost you more in the long run. I go through this occasionally. I buy something fairly inexpensive because it gets me somewhat close to the sound I'm looking for, and six months later I am selling it at a loss because of the sound or ergonomics/user interface, etc. Save up money to buy what you really want. And go slow so that you actually know what you really want and need to realize your goals.
For what it's worth, I have the AJH MiniMod Ladder Filter and a bunch of other AJH modules. If you want the Moog sound and experience, I can't think of anything outside of Moog themselves that would even get close to AJH in the eurorack format. They're truly stunning and a joy to play. I will keep my AJH stuff until I'm deep in the cold, cold ground.
Have fun and good luck!

Again, thanks for the tips.

Question:
Do I need a module to amplify (gain) the audio from my synths if I want to input it into a Eurorack module (i.e. a filter)? The output of my Korg Monologue, for example, is as loud as the headphone out (I tested). How does headphone level volume compare to modular level?

Off topic
I live near The Hague, in The Netherlands. In the eighties there were two very good and famous music stores here and they had a shop in the center of the city. They were Servaas and Rock Palace. The first closed shop in 1994 (wow! has it been that long? I'm getting F-ing elderly!) the second became Key Music a few years ago and is closed now. Like some of you said: when it became Key Music the personnel that studied or worked in the music biz disappeared and buffons who insult your intelligence were placed behind the counter. Modularsynthesizers.nl oficially resides at Lulofsstraat 55 in The Hague (they're not open to the public). I know where that is, never occured to me though.

There also was a very, very nice store in Rotterdam (not in the center though) that became Key Music and then went bust/disappeared. Went there a few times w/ public transportation to look around and bought stuff there. They had a big classic car in the middle of the store. If you know how to read Dutch (or if Google translate can make something readable out of it) then there's a saddning article of its downwfall after it became Key Music here. See picture below.

I'm afraid that nowadays we're bound to reviewers and sound snippets on Yuotube to "test" and "listen" to musical instruments.

BTW
Luckily AJH Synth modules can be bought in "regular" web shops like Thomann etc. Second hand might still be an option, however: I fear that shipping from outside The Netherlands (even if it's in the EU) is gonna be so expensive that what I save is little. Some sources say I even have to pay VAT (which is a whopping 21% in Holland) if I buy second hand from Great Britan or the US. I might have a look around though in the Dutch synthesizer forum: they sell a lot of stuff 2nd hand there too.

I asked Bax Music about one of the modules that I like. They don't disclose their mail address on their website anymore (deal breaker for me) and I can see that they haven't read the mail, or replied to it, yet.

EDITED Aug 7th 2023, 12:47

Again, thanks for the tips.

Question:
Do I need a module to amplify (gain) the audio from my synths if I want to input it into a Eurorack module (i.e. a filter)? The output of my Korg Monologue, for example, is as loud as the headphone out (I tested). How does headphone level volume compare to modular level?

the simple answer is try it and see, it won't break anything, but I suspect that you'll need an input amplifier... NB most of these (& the filters you are looking at) are mono

Off topic
I live near The Hague, in The Netherlands. In the eighties there were two very good and famous music stores here and they had a shop in the center of the city. They were Servaas and Rock Palace. The first closed shop in 1994 (wow! has it been that long? I'm getting F-ing elderly!) the second became Key Music a few years ago and is closed now. Like some of you said: when it became Key Music the personnel that studied or worked in the music biz disappeared and buffons who insult your intelligence were placed behind the counter. Modularsynthesizers.nl oficially resides at Lulofsstraat 55 in The Hague (they're not open to the public). I know where that is, never occured to me though.

There also was a very, very nice store in Rotterdam (not in the center though) that became Key Music and then went bust/disappeared. Went there a few times w/ public transportation to look around and bought stuff there. They had a big classic car in the middle of the store. If you know how to read Dutch (or if Google translate can make something readable out of it) then there's a saddning article of its downwfall after it became Key Music here. See picture below.

I'm afraid that nowadays we're bound to reviewers and sound snippets on Yuotube to "test" and "listen" to musical instruments.

it's a shame that synthesizers.nl has completely closed to the public... they would have been really handy for you!

The Hague to Amsterdam is not that bad a trip on the train, though... neither long or expensive... so a trip to MIDI Amsterdam shouldn't be out of the question - maybe give Tim a call before though, if you want to try out specific modules...

BTW
Luckily AJH Synth modules can be bought in "regular" web shops like Thomann etc. Second hand might still be an option, however: I fear that shipping from outside The Netherlands (even if it's in the EU) is gonna be so expensive that what I save is little. Some sources say I even have to pay VAT (which is a whopping 21% in Holland) if I buy second hand from Great Britan or the US. I might have a look around though in the Dutch synthesizer forum: they sell a lot of stuff 2nd hand there too.

I asked Bax Music about one of the modules that I like. They don't disclose their mail address on their website anymore (deal breaker for me) and I can see that they haven't read the mail, or replied to it, yet.

-- MeneerJansen

it's definitely a possibility that you'll get hit for any combination of import duty, VAT and handling charges, if you shop outside the EU... so stick to EU! and yeah not much point buying a used module if it's only 20€ less than buying it new, especially if you can get free shipping on the new module...