Hi,

first of all, I have already learned a lot from this community. So thank you for this fantastic resource! I'm pretty much at the beginning of the journey, though. I tried to come up with some coherent thoughts and a rack idea (might still be complete nonsense, though ...). It's gotten a bit lengthy, but you can just scroll down to the rack if you want ... and I am really looking forward to what you think.

Background
I'm a pianist with an interest in experimental music. Over the past couple of years, I've gotten more into making (DAWless) (melodic) ambient music with semi-modular gear. Synthwise, aside from a Prophet Rev2, I own two Moog Mother-32s, a DFAM, and a Subharmonicon. I run them through a pedal board with basic effects (reverb, delay, chorus, flanger, distortion, overdrive, looper) and use a Keystep 37 for sequencing.

I've been interested in Eurorack for a while, but it really 'clicked' for me when I recently borrowed a 0-Ctrl, 0-Coast, and Strega from a friend. I love the sound + workflow. Thus, I want to move towards a more generative and West Coast-like direction. But instead of buying another half a dozen semi-modulars, me and my credit card think it's time to go fully modular for that.

Goals for my System
- Integrate with my existing gear/Moogs (so I reckon I don't need many, or any, additional analog VCOs and VCFs?)
- Expand the very East Coast-y soundscape with more modulation sources, wavefolding, randomness, etc.
- Create an instrument that still works on its own and is reasonably balanced starting point
- Keep the budget around 3k€.

I've been looking at beginner's guides and tried to figure out which approaches and modules I like. Since I really enjoy the Make Noise soundscapes and workflows, I’ve tried to incorporate that influence as well. Maybe too much? I also think in my workflow I like simplicity - so I tried to avoid modules that appeared menu-divey to me. Here's what I came up with:

Initial Module Ideas

VCO
With my Moogs, I already have several analog VCOs. I'm considering adding something digital (like Plaits). But I really like the sound of the Make Noise STO which is why, at the moment, I'm considering both.

VCF
As with VCOs, I love the Moog filters but already have four in my semi-modulars, so I don't need another basic east-coasty VCF - I think? The Make Noise QPAS seems like an interesting choice to me and I imagine it pairs well with the STO. But I'm open for suggestions.

Modulation
I'm considering starting with Maths and an LFO (DivKid Ochd). Should I get an additional envelope generator (e.g. Erica Synths Black VCA, Doepfer A140, or ALM Pip Slope)? Or maybe a completely different combination? 

VCA
I know, "You can never have too many VCAs," but how do you choose a good starting point? I've selected a Tangle (4xVCA) and an Optomix (VCAF, if that counts). For output, I’m considering an extra Pico Out. I'm a bit confused in this area (= even more than in the other areas).

Sequencing / Randomness
With the Moogs and the Keystep I feel there's a lot of sequencing sources available to me already. Therefore, I'm looking for something simple and randomy. I’m considering combining Pamela's PRO Workout with what I already have and maybe a Turing Machine or Wogglebug for some extra uncertainty? I understand they are different beasts. Currently, I'm leaning towards the Wogglebug for a start. But maybe it's dumb to include so many modules by the same maker ... ?

Effects
As I mentioned, I currently use a pedal board for effects, so I’ve included an effects return module but no effects module. Aside from reverb and delay I can't say my music is dependent on many effects. And I've read mixed opinions on effect modules in Eurorack. Optionally I'm considering a Tiptop Audio Z5000 (alternatively an FX Aid XL). Opinions?

Utilities
Same as above with some "swiss army knives" like Ornaments & Crime or Disting MK4. They seem useful in that they let you explore stuff you don't have yet as a distinct module. The reason I haven't included them is a) the menu diving and b) that I probably have a lot to play with and to understand already. But maybe I'm totally wrong here and some allrounders might be useful. Happy about suggestions, especially on what other useful stuff is missing.

Case
In a Rackbrute 6U, this configuration would more or less fit my budget, especially if I can get some modules used. It leaves me with only 50 - 60 ish HP for future expansions and I'm aware that's not much. But I also like it as a compact skiff for gigs and maybe use it in my band. So the reasoning is to add a bigger rack later on and keep this anyway. And I know how that sounds in the context of Eurorack ... but I’ve never been a fan of collecting gear—but let’s revisit that in five years or so. ;)

What Do You Think?
As I said, I tried to put some thoughts into this, but as a beginner without much practical knowledge in fully modular synthesis, I probably have made odd choices. I’m really looking forward to your comments! Thanks!

One thing worth considering here is a) a matrix mixer and b) some kind of switch setup like the Doepfer A-182-2. They'll help you facilitate changes in your setup without having to do a lot of repatching (I like repatching, but it ian't always convenient).

A Pip Slope or other small and simple envelope generator is not a bad idea - Maths is good for envelopes, but if you have the space it's nice to delegate such mundane duties to other modules. You can also take the envelopes from the Mother-32 and use them for other stuff as well.

As for VCAs, you're fortunate here in that the Moog synths, the QPAS, and the Plaits all have their own built-in VCAs, meaning that the practical aspect of them isn't a huge deal here. The STO doesn't, but that's fine - you can always find one for it out of what's already here, or you can even use it as an audio rate modulation source to get different FM sounds with your other oscillators.

The Optomix is not just a VCA but a low pass gate, so it combines VCA and subtle low pass filtering to give audio a specific character based on how natural acoustic sounds work (as they get louder, they get brighter). If you wanted to explore this in a cheaper form, some of the best cheap small modules available are the Takaab 2LPG passive low pass gates, one of the only 2hp modules that works fine aside from mults. Not only are they great for audio and CV, but they have a switch so you can control how much filtering they do and use them as a plain VCA if needed. However, the Optomix is a nice module with nice knobs, so if you want to throw money at this particular concept it's a good choice.

With what you have here, I'd mainly be thinking about VCAs for modulation (you can't go wrong with a Doepfer 130-8) as well as some kind of attenuverter/offset module like the Tiptop Miso, Frap Tools 321, or Happy Nerding 3x MIA. If you're not sure what you want from all these different VCA/attenuverter options, a good choice might be an After Later Audio Cloaks or an Intellijel Quad VCA, because they have lots of options to use them as variations of all these things so you can figure out what makes the most sense (switching between unipolar and bipolar, switching between linear and exponential, etc). While the Tangle Quartet is good (people say it is very high quality), it may also be worth looking into one that switches between linear and exponential, because it's hard to get a feel for why that matters based on description alone. It's up to you.

Basically, all of this seems fine to me in terms of basic building blocks, but now you need to think about quality of life modules to make this stuff as easy to use as possible.

How do you imagine all these extra parts being sequenced/played? A Keystep 37 probably won't be enough even if the Moogs sequence themselves. If your goal is to experiment with generative and uncontrolled stuff, you may want to look into quantizers. That way you can take any modulation of any kind and turn it into a melodic phrase by having the quantizer turn it into 1 volt per octave signals. Throw in some gates/triggers from a different source (Pam's, Maths, etc) and suddenly anything in your setup is a source of unique melodies and arpeggiations. Pam's does quantization if I recall, but there are other options if you want to free it up. Splitting your note/pitch events and timing/trigger/gate events in this way is probably always going to be the best way to use your modular's generative composition possibilities to their fullest extent without feeling too much like you're not doing anything.

Initial Module Ideas

VCO
With my Moogs, I already have several analog VCOs. I'm considering adding something digital (like Plaits). But I really like the sound of the Make Noise STO which is why, at the moment, I'm considering both.

yeah you'll probably want a. couple of these (at least) at some point and a wavefolder and some dedicated utilities - especially as you mentioned west-coast - ie additive, not subtractive synthesis

the newly announced (but not yet available) tiptop buchla 259 might be a good option in the future...

VCF
As with VCOs, I love the Moog filters but already have four in my semi-modulars, so I don't need another basic east-coasty VCF - I think? The Make Noise QPAS seems like an interesting choice to me and I imagine it pairs well with the STO. But I'm open for suggestions.

doepfer make a number of interesting (& inexpensive) clones of classic filters - I particularly like the wasp and the SEM

Modulation
I'm considering starting with Maths and an LFO (DivKid Ochd). Should I get an additional envelope generator (e.g. Erica Synths Black VCA, Doepfer A140, or ALM Pip Slope)? Or maybe a completely different combination? 

If you're wanting keyboard like responses - then an adsr is a good idea - maybe some more research is in order, the erica sysnths black vca is not an envelope generator, it's a consumer of envelopes!!!

I see @Zacksname recommended a matrix mixer - this is an excellent idea for taking simple modulation and making it more complex - get the doepfer - inexpensive, good ergonomics, inverters etc... this will also help with attenuation of modulation sources... often full range modulation is not what you want, attenuation = subtelty

re Maths: fantastic module one of my favourites - really comes alive when you dig in - sownload thte 'maths illustrated supplement' and work your way through it multiple times - concentrating on what, why & how maths is doing what it's doing!!! whilst it's primarily a primer for patch programming (a very west coat concept) maths, the concepts and lessons can be easily extended and applied to the whole of a modular synthesizer

VCA
I know, "You can never have too many VCAs," but how do you choose a good starting point? I've selected a Tangle (4xVCA) and an Optomix (VCAF, if that counts). For output, I’m considering an extra Pico Out. I'm a bit confused in this area (= even more than in the other areas).

optomix good! veils clone really good... continuously variable between linear & exponential response curves (primarily for cv & audio, respectively) etc...

output module: don't buy one unless you need one & if you do try a basic passive attenuator first and a vca second before thirdly succumbing to an output module... unless you desperately must have balanced outputs due to distance or need a headphone output (but better to buy an end of chain mixer with a headphone out in that case)

"you can neverr have too many vcas" - correct, especially quad cascading ones, but the same is almost true about mixers - sub-mixers (preferably with attenuversion and offset - primarily for cv), matrix mixers and a decent end of chain mixer are always good investments

Sequencing / Randomness
With the Moogs and the Keystep I feel there's a lot of sequencing sources available to me already. Therefore, I'm looking for something simple and randomy. I’m considering combining Pamela's PRO Workout with what I already have and maybe a Turing Machine or Wogglebug for some extra uncertainty? I understand they are different beasts. Currently, I'm leaning towards the Wogglebug for a start. But maybe it's dumb to include so many modules by the same maker ... ?

Pam's can do pitched random loops - etc - like a turing machine or wobblebug... except for both of those you'd almost definitely want a quantizer too... which will eat a channel of pam's... start with Pams!

instead of random - consider chaotic instead... triple sloth is great for this...

& don't forget the attenuvertting mixers that you will need to tame the resulting random/chaos either way!

Effects
As I mentioned, I currently use a pedal board for effects, so I’ve included an effects return module but no effects module. Aside from reverb and delay I can't say my music is dependent on many effects. And I've read mixed opinions on effect modules in Eurorack. Optionally I'm considering a Tiptop Audio Z5000 (alternatively an FX Aid XL). Opinions?

FX Aid PRO!!! I have both the xl and the pro... the pro is 10000 times more useable... not only because it has a screen so you can actually see what algo you are using - but it holds almost all the possible algos & includes a basic scope - pesky thing that deaf people use to see what their modulation is doing, instead of just sending it into the pitch input of a vco & using their ears!!!

Utilities
Same as above with some "swiss army knives" like Ornaments & Crime or Disting MK4. They seem useful in that they let you explore stuff you don't have yet as a distinct module. The reason I haven't included them is a) the menu diving and b) that I probably have a lot to play with and to understand already. But maybe I'm totally wrong here and some allrounders might be useful. Happy about suggestions, especially on what other useful stuff is missing.

ah, finally the really important stuff... not the overly complicated digital, menu driven abominations that are O&C & disting, but simple things like sequential switches, logic, clock dividers, mixers, mults, attenuverters etc you need these!!!

take a look at my signature - read it and then spend a considerable time thinking deeply about it and the implications of it for you rack... then think some more... then come back and thank me for distilling such wisdom into a simple formula... I recently had someone say (on another forum) they'd had it tattoed onto their body... I challenged them for pictures, which were not forth coming... I believe I may have called their bluff... but I should get t-shirts made up!!

just kidding about the O&C & disting... well sort of, they are annoying, but they're very useful to have around... especially the disting - which I have - it has to be used wisely though - favourite mode is key and replacing using it's algos with dedicated modules, is a bloody good idea...

Case
In a Rackbrute 6U, this configuration would more or less fit my budget, especially if I can get some modules used. It leaves me with only 50 - 60 ish HP for future expansions and I'm aware that's not much. But I also like it as a compact skiff for gigs and maybe use it in my band. So the reasoning is to add a bigger rack later on and keep this anyway. And I know how that sounds in the context of Eurorack ... but I’ve never been a fan of collecting gear—but let’s revisit that in five years or so. ;)

I've said it before & I'll say it again - TIPTOP MANTIS - best bang for buck starter case there is... combination of price/size/decent power supply & manufacturer reputation there is... it's the sweet spot... some people dislike it's aesthetics - but quite frankly who gives a fuck when it's covered in patch cables and you're rocking out to your bleeps n bloops????????

plus no f'ing rack wart stealing space from important modules and no irrelevant marketing branding shite - if I had one and was playing live I'd have to gaffer tape the back, lest anyone in the audience thought I was playing an arturia synth and not just encasing my modular!!! & the rackbrute is as fugly as I sincerely hope both Uli b-company & the guy who runs Synthrotek's wive's are...

plus it's underpowered if you use too many digital modules... don't do this!!! either of them - seriously leave at least 25-30% headroom on all power rails so as not to oexperience disappointment when your modular won't start up properly - inrush is a thing, believe me... or use too many digital modules... you need utilities too, see both above and below!!!

and... breathe...

hope this helped!!!

EDITED May 20th, 21:23

wogglebug has wilder random as turing maschine, if this is your taste. + special feautures like audio mangling etc - its more beasty stuff

Turing maschine is more straight forward, but lovely and nice with expanders - the Pulses expander does nice gates
especialy with Benjolin V2 from After Later Audio
- you can chain it with all expanders
(I love this combo)

Benjolin V2 alone is also nice for random + it has a nice filter
+ BV2 is a nice crazy sound design tool

thoughts

I would suggest to only get a few utilities for the start and just build stuff around your moogs.

Not a 3000 Dollar investment

As you say you are more in ambient music:

for random:

Marbles could maybe suit you better instead of a turing maschine.
or clank chaos

Clank chaos has also a sequencer mode and many scales for quantization
Marbles is more accessable with just twisting knobs

check them out

Dont forget Pamelas New Pro Workout can do most of the stuff, like lfos, sequencing, random, logic, etc

combined with things like maths, lapsus os, 3xMia, Miso or 4ms mingler - Pams can archieve a lot you would search in other modules

Modulation:

Ochd + Ochd expander is good for ambient - applying slow modulations
or NLC Triple Sloths

?

If you want fo go west coast - Do you need more filters?

vcas:

check bastl Aikido for audio processing. Feedback-patching, Sidechain, compression, spectral follower.

Intelijell quad vca for cv processing - also great audio quality

Attenuverter, Offsett, Scale:

4ms shifting mingler
Noise Engineering Lapsus Os
Tiptop Miso
3xMia

wavefolder

Maybe a Steady Fate Gate?
Low pass gate, saturation + wavefolder
sounds amaizing

bastl modules are interesting because they are mostly designed for wild feedback stuff.

like bastl timber, waver or dark matter

I guess, if I had the moogs, I would just make a little pod with a few picks of these:

1. Priority:
   maths
   pams
   ochd+expander
   any matrix mixer
   triple sloths
   mini marbles clone or clank chaos
   mingler or lapsus os

2. later additional:
   SSF Gate
   benjolin V2
   bastl aikido
   intellijell quad vca

everything small whats missing, like; switches, mults, divider, dedicated logic modules .....

EDITED May 21st, 01:51

Wow, that's already A LOT to work with. Thanks so much!

I have yet to digest everything and will take some time to do that but a few quick thoughts/takeaways:

@Zacksname: Your comments on the VCAs have cleared things up for me a lot. Thanks! Also, I've been thinking about quantization and wasn't sure how to prioritise it. But having read your post I think workflow-wise it sounds like an interesting path for me. I'm familiar with the concept but somehow it slid in and out of my priorities over the past couple of weeks. But it makes total sense.

@JimHowell70: On my way to the tattoo studio already, haha ... people are talking about your signature on the streets. I think my next step will be to take a deeper dive into utilities - and then probably start with some modulation + utilities on the Moogs before expanding the setup to be its own thing. I guess that could be a good strategy? Case wise: I agree on the Rackbrute looking hideous ... will have a closer look on TipTop Audio (but psst... I think they are looking even worse, but as you said: Who cares in the end).

@VONDENFUNKEN: There are some very interesting recommendations module wise, thank you - and you're right, I probably don't want to bury all my budget at once but use what I already have to get a better understanding of a couple of extra modulation + utilities first. But I kinda want to set an intermediate goal for a system to figure out where I want to start - if that makes any sense. You're suggestions for a little pod for the moogs helps a lot with this.

Alright, time to dig a little deeper ...

Wow, that's already A LOT to work with. Thanks so much!

ask and you shall reveive!!! hahaha

I have yet to digest everything and will take some time to do that but a few quick thoughts/takeaways:

@Zacksname: Your comments on the VCAs have cleared things up for me a lot. Thanks! Also, I've been thinking about quantization and wasn't sure how to prioritise it. But having read your post I think workflow-wise it sounds like an interesting path for me. I'm familiar with the concept but somehow it slid in and out of my priorities over the past couple of weeks. But it makes total sense.

it's a juggling act - piorities change constantly... the simple act of adding a module, will almost definitely change the priority of the next module and so on... no plan survives contact with the enemy... and your biggest enemy is yourself!

@JimHowell70: On my way to the tattoo studio already, haha ... people are talking about your signature on the streets.

pictures (and/or field recordings), or it never happened!!! hahaha

but seriously I think a t shirt is better - cheaper and less permanent!!

I think my next step will be to take a deeper dive into utilities - and then probably start with some modulation + utilities on the Moogs before expanding the setup to be its own thing. I guess that could be a good strategy? Case wise: I agree on the Rackbrute looking hideous ... will have a closer look on TipTop Audio (but psst... I think they are looking even worse, but as you said: Who cares in the end).

you should see most of my racks... they're diy'ed out of skirting board... at least 30 years after I did any wood work - they are wonky... unfinished with sides poking out above the tops... but they do the job and in low light from the right angle they look ok(ish)...

functionality over aesthetics everyday, in every way... at least in relation to synth racks!!!

Alright, time to dig a little deeper ...
-- steben

Not going to add much but just confirm some suggestions -- having went down a similar route about a year ago. Buy the Mantis, and dont pick an Erica Synths Quad VCA. That said, if you are still in the market, I have both for sale 😉

Recently, I acquired a Mantis case and a Tangle Quartet and have absolutely no regrets. Another note on the Erica VCA... the channels don't fully close. Erica Synths stated this is normal operation. Extremely annoying to have a quiet leak of sound when you want it to shut up.

EDITED May 23rd, 02:37