I am a Eurowreck

Hi there!

I'm Phil, new to the endless world of modular synths, and about to take a plunge into the rabbit hole they call Eurorack.
A couple of months ago I purchased a cheap semi modular for the sole purpose of getting 'into patching' and learning the most I could about triggers, gates, CV and the signal flow from VCO to OUT - before I would start collecting, assembling and enjoying modules.
Here I am, getting comfortable in the forum and building my first Eurorack synth. That said, would you mind telling me your opinion about my plan and setup?

First, a little bit of background and what I'm trying to achieve here: Actually I am a guitarist and want to explore and create music in a completely new way. I don't want to copy anyone or any genre. But if I were forced to talk about the sound I want to create, it would certainly have elements from Industrial, Drum'n'Bass and Hip Hop. An artist I admire is Snakes of Russia, and although I love his beats and how he synthesized drums, my aim is to go for something more melodically rich (due to my background). I could also imagine myself creating soundscapes with character to which I could play the ol' six string.

Let's take a look at this thing!

The BIA is here to create positively weird percussion and to occasionally provide the punchy bass. The CI should give me that dark harmonically rich sound and would be the center of my sound creation. Rings would provide an array of more natural (instrumental) sounds to add another layer or timbre to my compositions. Bitbox Micro... well, it's a sampla player (I probably wouldn't use it as a sampler; I have the WAV recorder for that purpose) so I can bring in externally sampled sounds I can trigger and manipulate.
Let's continue with the lower row: Pam will provide the clock, MD is my esteemed CV sequencer and Marbles should do the rest of rhythm and melodies - especially when I'm too lazy to meticulously program the MD.
Back to the upper row, where you'll find two filters. I initially added the M8 to manipulate the samples. But by now I am certain it will do more than just that. Erica's Polivoks is here because I simply love the sound of it and it will further enhance the sound of the CI and even the BIA.
Off we go to the modulation and manipulation section. Here I'll expect to learn the most from just patching and playing with the modules - and maybe from your input.Batumi should take care of the main LFO-duties and Stages will provide the Envelopes. And frankly, I am a bit intimidated and in awe of what Stages and Maths promise to do to this setup.
Coming to an end, there's a quadruple VCA (intellijel), a simple compressor (2HP), the Lo-Fi-Junky (because I already know and love it as a guitar pedal) and Erica's Black Hole DSP2 for the finish. I can mix everything in 4ms' 4Q, get the audio out and send it to the WAV recorder and its SD card.

Now it's your turn, fellows. What did I miss? Where am I wrong? What do you like about it?
Do I have enough to trigger and sequence my rhythms and melodies? What's with the modulation part? Am I right to be intimidated but is it the right (whatever that means) equipment in this section? Am I forgetting other utilities?
I am a beginner so be honest and let me learn from you.

Thanks!
Looking forward to this discussion.

Cheers,
p.

EDITED May 30th 2020, 07:45

This is a pretty good start. I reworked it some to give you a few new ideas. No worries if you aren't interested in my choices, but you might want to give these ideas some thought.
I mentioned in another recent post that BIA (and CI for that matter) need a lot of dedicated modulation to get the most out of them. With that in mind, I replaced Mimetic Digitalis, Maths, and Stages with the Varigate 4+ (4xCV, or 4xgate, or 2xCV/2xgate sequencer), Voltage Block (8xCV), Zadar for envelope generation, and 3xMIA and Links for utilities, mixing, attenuverting, etc. Your Quad VCA also serves as a mixer. To me, this gives you more options in the same amount of space. If you can figure out a way to fit a Disting in there too, you have an even broader palette. (You could probably fit a Disting MK4 if you went with one of the smaller Marbles or Rings clones instead of the full-size factory versions)
I got rid of the compressor because the LoFi Junky already provides compression (top left knob, Counterclockwise). The 4ms Listen IO gives you a line/headphone output and a line-to-modular level input. You mentioned that you are a guitarist, so it would probably be pretty fun to bring in some external sound directly. I'm guessing you already have some gear to convert your instrument signals to line level?
Overall, this looks like it would be a pretty versatile rack. Hope this gave you some things to consider.
Have fun and good luck!

I like both versions of this rack, and I think farkas's suggestions are good. One thing to consider, with the idea of getting a Disting and potentially some other stuff in here: Black Hole DSP 2 is awesome, but big. You say you're a guitar player... do you have pedals on hand? If so, you may find that something like a pedal interface module would be a better choice than a large module. No sense eating up rack space for effects you already have access to. The space and $$$ you save would leave you room for other things. (The Lo-Fi Junky might also fall into this category... if you have pedals that serve this purpose, no need to get the module.)

Good point about utilizing existing effects. Bastl makes that 5hp guitar pedal interface that might be a good option to eliminate some of the effects here. I’m sure there are plenty of other modules that do that too.
Just realized also that the Disting EX would add more sample playback options and an integrated recorder.

Hi farkas
Hi Shakespeare

Thank you both! That's exactly what I came here for.
@farkas: Thanks for your suggestions and updating the modulation sources! Especially the Links and 3xMIA as utilities would have gone by completely. I was always - maybe somehow stupidly - under the impression I also could attenuate the signal with the quad VCA and didn't think of it as a mixer. Finally, I like your way of thinking to 'implement' my guitar into Eurorack. So far I don't have something to convert my instrument signals to line. Any suggestions on your part?

@Shakespeare: A great thought to use effect pedals after the Eurorack! Thank you. But I have my concerns and reservations. First, I would want to be 'independent' from my other gear. That's not to say that I wouldn't joke/jam around with an external drum machine or my guitar. But I might also use my Eurorack outside my house and wouldn't want to take my pedal board with me. Second, it 'just' feels better (I guess) to be able to manipulate everything (effects, in that case) within arm's reach.
But I am truly grateful for your creative approach thinking outside the box ;)

I think this might be a better option:

I made a major set of changes to this, starting with the workflow. Audio up, modulation down (for the most part). Kept the Noise Engineering stuff, although I should note that I'm not a fan of their obtuse/eye-wrecking panel marking scheme and cod-Latin nonsense. Now, following the BitBox, I added a 2 hp mixer to better integrate this with the Basimoid Sigismoid Colon whatever percussive thing. This sets up that end of the top row as your sequenced percussives/samples. Note that I dumped the other sample player; trust me, once you start digging into the Bit Box, you'll see that that was superfluous.

Kept the wavetable NE, added a Plaits clone. Reason here is that if you double your oscillator, you get a fatter, richer sound...and with digital oscillators, you might just want that. Now, next to this, I put in a Tiptop wavefolder, which also allows you to mix/crossfold both oscillators, with a much more controllable result. Mind you, I didn't get rid of the ability to use effects such as the Lo-Fi Junky...I just put in an effects loop module instead, which now gives you CV over your wet-dry balance.

After the wavefolder, there's a different VCF. Tiptop's Forbidden Planet is also a really aggro filter, like the Polivoks...but UNlike the Polivoks, this thing can screech and howl, making for really vicious leads. This VCF is based on the Steiner Synthacon VCF, actually...an INFAMOUSLY nasty filter, which in this case also gives you HPF capabilities that the Polivoks doesn't offer.

Modulation row: added a Happy Nerding 3xMIA, because you've got a lot of modulation sources, but you didn't have a good way to crossmix/manipulate these. Also, I added a dual ADSR because the original build was very envelope-starved, even with the Maths. Plus, you'll find the four-stage envelopes useful for your VCFs and final audio VCAs. Then, the cherry on the cake is a true stereo output after the Black DSP, with a ganged attenuator for stereo volume control.

There's still a few things here that bug me, most notably the absence of a couple more VCAs as well as a dedicated stereo audio mixer. But in this small a build, I think this might be a decent start.

Hy @Lugia!
Thrilled about your response. Thanks, man! I especially like your focus on the richness of the sound!

Can I follow up on a few things?
(everyone else: feel free to join in, too!)
How does MI's Links compare to the 2hp mixer? As far as I understood, the Links provides also a 3:1 mixer - on top of a buffered mult and an adder.
What are your experience with XAOC's Zadar as a quad EG - that would even double the number of available envelopes, wouldn't it?
Wavefolding: Is this a function that would be non-negotiable for my setup?
Also, did you come across Malekko's Quad VCA? If I'd get the Varigate-Voltage Block-Combo, it supposes to pair well with both (@farkas What are your thoughts?)
Finally, I believe the 4ms Listen4 (Quarters) should work as both a stereo mixer AND Line Out. Am I right?

In any case: Thank you all so far already for your invaluable support.

I think I would prefer the Intellijel VCA with switchable linear/exponential response and knobs for each channel. Unless you think you really need the ability to recall a lot of presets that the Malekko VCA provides, the Intellijel offers more control.

Unless you think you really need the ability to recall a lot of presets that the Malekko VCA provides, the Intellijel offers more control.
-- farkas

It definitely facilitates the workflow and it might also come handy in a performance setting - something I don't think about at the moment. But what's also important: Malekko's VCA is 4HP smaller

One thing I have learned about my own workflow is that I mostly prefer larger modules with single knob-per-function. I have a 4hp Peaks clone that packs a ton of functionality into a small space, but man is it a pain to use. I kind of wish I had bought the 8hp version and sacrificed the space. Smaller is rarely better for me. I'm a tall guy with big hands, and getting my fingers into those little spaces when there are 50 patch cables plugged in... ugh.
Everyone works differently though, so you will have to get some modules in your rack and decide what you like best. Some people love menu-diving and button combinations and changing knob functions, but that's mostly something I avoid when I can.

Bit by bit here...

How does MI's Links compare to the 2hp mixer?

It doesn't. The unity-gain on the Links can mix...but you have zero control over the input levels unless they're attenuated from outside, which means yet another module would be needed. Part of the key to using a mixer is to make those little tweaks to the levels...either adding a little bit of a fast LFO to your pitch CV for a touch of vibrato, or backing down an audio level that's coming in too hot versus the other sources.

What are your experience with XAOC's Zadar as a quad EG - that would even double the number of available envelopes, wouldn't it?

Yes...BUT. The Zadar really works best with its expander, unlike the Batumi which can work well enough without its expander. If you can cram both in, though, that would make for a better solution. But the A-140-2 wound up in there because it physically fit; to get a Zadar and its expander in, you'd have to either expand the cab or lose something else.

Wavefolding: Is this a function that would be non-negotiable for my setup?

No, but it's worth noting that wavefolding and what the Zvex module does are similar processes. ANY sort of distortion affects the behavior of the incoming waveform. But this is key here: Zvex Lo-fi Junky= $299, Tiptop Fold = $135. The Zvex also doesn't allow mixing/crossfolding.

One other point: while the Zvex can do compression, there's not that much use for that in a modular unless you're either using it to...yep...waveshape via clipping OR you're using it like a typical compressor to control levels on an external signal. Unless you're talking about something brainshatteringly-expensive such as the Cwejman modular compressors, you're far better off using an EXTERNAL comp/limiter to control your modular's dynamics. You'll have more/better control that way...and, if you get a unit that has sidechain keying, you can send a modular trigger to that to "pump" the comp/limiter in rhythm with ease. You could even run that off of a trigger sequencer, making the entire modular work like a percussion instrument that way.

Also, did you come across Malekko's Quad VCA? If I'd get the Varigate-Voltage Block-Combo, it supposes to pair well with both

Sure. They're just large. You'd have to do some major reworking to fit those. However, I like the "variable curve" VCAs that Intellijel and Mutable both have, since you can alter the VCA's response on the fly to mess with dynamic range, CV/mod influence, etc.

Finally, I believe the 4ms Listen4 (Quarters) should work as both a stereo mixer AND Line Out. Am I right?
-- dance_a_little

Yes. However, the Listen Four offers no VCAs over any functions. It's purely manual. By using the Quad VCA as the primary mixer, though, you then can control the mixing via its VCAs, then use the Black Hole DSP as your "stereoizer" to widen the mono output from the Quad VCA. In fact, since you have CV over so many of the BHDSP's functions, you can actually make rather complex and constantly-shifting stereo imaging by sending modulation signals to its control inputs. This also saves space for expansion. Which gets me to...

This is not a large build. You have limited space here. It's not a good idea to do redundant modules in this sort of circumstance, because you'll quickly wind up in a situation where you have to leave something necessary out, or you'll need to go with a larger cab. And I see this problem all the time, where users are trying to cram ALL of their desired functions into a single small case. It doesn't work. Instead, you need to find function-dense modules that can cram lots of capability into a small footprint. But this ALSO has a diminishing return problem, as farkas notes above. Yeah, you could build the whole thing out of 6 hp and smaller modules...but it would totally SUCK to try and play an instrument that's laid out that tightly. Ultimately, there's a balance that has to be struck to make the build ergonomically suitable, otherwise you'll wind up with a boxful of uncontrollable and expensive nonsense.

mowse's "What is that thing behind you?" thread here in the forum gives a better solution. Instead of trying to smash an entire studio's functionality into a little case like this, you might want to think about their plan, which breaks up functions into different "zones" and even different cabs. This makes for a much easier work environment, because you know intuitively which part of the rig to turn to for the functionality you need. Yes, in the end this approach tends to cost more...but what you lose in $$$, you GAIN in usability, and that makes all the difference between a rig you'll work with for many years, and a pile of crap that's destined for eBay.

Geez, Lugia!
You should make money with this stuff ;)
Thanks a lot!

Let's go on:
What if we got rid of the Bitbox and focus on drums and soundscaping? I'd be amazed if we couldn't put anything decent together on 208HP in total. What would you do with at least 18HP of real estate?

My instinct would be to remove the drum parts, actually, and not the BitBox. You can use the BitBox to store textural loops very easily, which fits nicely with the soundscape aspect. But with the way drum machines are going at present, it might be a better move to go with a NON-modular solution.

This'll probably cause a big shock for some users, but I'm going to actually suggest getting some...yep...Behringer stuff. Namely, an RD-8. Yep, Uli actually managed to get this fairly right. Each track has an individual output for discrete processing of drum sounds, there are three trig-out tracks, and the sequencer works pretty much as one would expect for an 808, with some added conveniences. Now, in addition to this, I would ALSO suggest adding a Doepfer A-119 to the modular, as this is an external input preamp that also has an envelope follower and level comparator, meaning that you can feed individual outputs or even the entire machine through the modular to screw with them there. It also has a decent onboard filter on its own.

Then to that, I'd suggest adding Elektron's new Model: Cycles, which is an FM-based "groovebox". Ignore that stupid term, though...what it would be here is a source for metallics, percussive weirdness, etc. And yes, BOTH of these are easily locked to the modular's clock; the Elektron will want to see a MIDI clock which will require the PEXP-2 expander for the Pam's, but the RD-8 can take an analog sync directly, meaning you can mess with the RD-8's clocking via a direct connection to a Pam's channel. And by putting all of this under a DAW clock, everything locks up nicely, even if you're (ab)using the Pam's to mangle the timing.

Then, to put the cherry on the cake here, get some cheap (Rowin, Donner, Caline, Cuvave, Azor, Mugig, et al) effects pedals. Sprinkle liberally amongst the individual RD-8 outputs...fuzzes, overdrives, bitcrushers, delays, etc.

This is actually a better solution for drums, from my experience. What I use is definitely not identical to this, but there's very much aspects of this in my own studio that allow me to get really busy with percussives. But the fact is that electronic percussion is actually STILL something of a "weak link" in modular synths. Either you don't get enough functionality out of rather spendy modules, or they just don't sound all that hot in the first place. However, one manufacturer there stands out for creating a bunch of totally wrongheaded modules that are EXCELLENT for bangers 'n' clangers, and that would be Moffenzeef. And yep, you can fire those off of the RD-8's trigger channels. But again, I'd suggest putting these in something like a Palette skiff...keep your functions separate. This not only frees space in the main cab for synth-centric modules, but it gives you space for a bit of logic to mess with timings, as well as a small mixer and something "evil" for drum-specific processing, such as a Schlappi Interstellar Radio which is designed to make everything sound utterly, totally trashed, very early Aphex-ish.

And while it might sound like having all of these separate devices would get confusing, the opposite is usually the case...since you know that "X" noises are coming from this box, "Y" out of this other one, and so on. No need to chase down your mingled patchcord signal paths in a single cab. Having done live techno sets this way back in the 1990s, with NO laptop, NO software, and NO MIDI save for a TR-909 sequencer signal to a CZ-101 (yep...all CV/gate and onboard sequencers!), I can assure you that this methodology DOES WORK...and it's a lot more streamlined than you'd suspect!

Lugia, I cannot express enough how much I value your input. I learn so much from your responses. Both your time and effort you put in crafting your replies are not in vain. Thank you!

I tried to incorporate many of your and farkas' advice and make my future setup better without losing too much of my 'ideas'. While you'd suggest 'externalizing' the drums - and even talked about the :cycles - I tend towards using my :samples as external gear and Akemie's Taiko as a Jack-of-all-trades-FM-drum-voice. This way I can manipulate the incoming external audio in my rack. So I could even get rid of the BIA as well as the Lo-Fi-Junky. I added the expander for both Batumi and Zadar as well as a designated mixer, another triple VCA and the Fold Processor. What an amazing module!! I didn't know it, it seems to be so versatile and it produces the sound I want! So thanks for bringing it to my attention! I'm leaning towards the Varigate-Voltage Block-combo for major sequencing duties.
Am I getting 'there'?

EDITED Jun 1st 2020, 19:25

Looks like a fun rack to me!
Just to weigh in on the drum discussion. It's definitely cheaper to do percussion externally. I tried that and found I liked the modular approach better for my workflow. It cost a small fortune, and it's a lot more limited than an external or software approach, but I just didn't enjoy working that way. I kind of appreciate the limitations to keep me creative.
The Moffenzeef Mito (sadly discontinued) is an amazing hands-on sequencing tool that I am using with the Buck Modular DrumF*ck (criminally overlooked glitchy drum module, but sadly no individual outputs per drum), Basimilus Iteritas Alter, and Endorphin.es Blck_Noir (for CR78 style post-punk and synthpop sounds). I may pick up a Bastl Noise Square and Skis to dedicate to even more percussion sounds. There are cons to this approach for sure, like Lugia mentioned, but we all find what works for us as individuals. I'm finding that drums are probably my favorite parts of my rack.
Let us know how your new investment works out.

Noise Engineering stuff, although I should note that I'm not a fan of their obtuse/eye-wrecking panel marking scheme

:-) Agree. The NE Modules are one of the worst out there when it comes to Design. I really don't understand what People think when they make these "Designs"

Noise Engineering stuff, although I should note that I'm not a fan of their obtuse/eye-wrecking panel marking scheme

:-) Agree. The NE Modules are one of the worst out there when it comes to Design. I really don't understand what People think when they make these "Designs"
-- Quantum_Eraser

Yep. Their panels look to me like a bottle of India ink threw up on a sheet of aluminum. And the ultra-tiny script that they use to fit into that mess is just horrible...if you're in any sort of low-light situation (such as a live gig), you're going to have a lot of trouble reading those. And while I'm sure the defense of "well...eventually you just know what those are" might be legit-ish, I still don't think there's any excuse for this. Sure, I get that there's a "design sensibility" there, as there is with a number of other makers who also like to do visually-obtuse panels...but it's worth noting that Greyscale does a decent business in making sensible panels for modules that look like crap.

That's so funny. The Noise Engineering panels don't bother me in the slightest. The Make Noise panels on the other hand...

Gotta say: I'm with farkas.
The design of some MN modules confuses the crap out of me. Also, somehow I find Eurorack is 'serious business' (don't know how to put it) and some Mutable Instruments and TipTop modules are just too colorful.
:)

Color is at least a part of the modular landscape, though...that dates back to Don Buchla, and really takes off when Serge Tcherepnin comes up with his system at CalArts a few years later. You also see color-coded connections in devices such as analog computers to denote the various functions of patchpoints.

Color is at least a part of the modular landscape, though
-- Lugia

My visual æsthetics are monochromatic; my musical æsthetics polychromatic
But very interesting to hear that those designs are neither random nor the work of a young Design Intern.

EDITED Jun 3rd 2020, 17:40