Getting a Fat Sub,can i use a Clock Divider?

im looking at modules to get a Fat Deep Sub in my Eurorack System

Got recommended getting something like this
https://schneidersladen.de/en/doepfer-a-160-2-clock-divider-ii?number=150066

and then run my oscillator thru it,and then mix the square wave suboctave with my main osc.

will that work?

should do - as long as it is an analog clock divider, which I think the doepfer is

I often use a dreadbox div to do the same thing - although usually I use a square wave from the oscillator too - og tides high/low outputs as the input to the divider

/2 = - 1 octave
/4 = - 2 octaves

I've just tried on my Doepfer A-160-2 and it works. Great tip by way, I hadn't thought of that.
Plus having the option to change between triggers and gates you get two different timbres to choose from.

I've just tried on my Doepfer A-160-2 and it works. Great tip by way, I hadn't thought of that.
Plus having the option to change between triggers and gates you get two different timbres to choose from.
-- Mazz

awesome then i think its safe for me to put in a order for the A-160-2:)

Another possibility would be the Tiptop Fold Processor...this gives you a dual-input waveshaper (with CV control) AND an audio suboctave divider. Not only can this do the suboctave division, but you also have the ability to do a lot of timbral alterations to inputted signals.

Question: why not just tune it lower vs. have derived suboctaves (as discussed above)?

BTW from producerdojo.com I learned an interesting technique which is basically distorted sine sub bass. Step 1: have a pure sine tuned to your sub frequency, which gives you a very controlled and very powerful fundamental. Step 2: mult that to another pathway, distort the hell out of it to taste, highpass filter it so you can add it on top of your pure sub without problems, and do other filtering plus leveling for control to taste. The results are i) you get a powerful controled sub ii) you get a fizzy or nasty top you can mix in to taste iii) you can CV or otherwise change the top for lots of expression / variety iv) everything tracks pitch, gliss and dives perfectly. I've done this in VSTs but not yet my eurorack setup, should work fine in eurorack.

If the clock divider technique (from above) works well, I'll need to add that to my box of tricks and try it in eurorack soon!

EDITED May 8th 2021, 22:24

BTW from producerdojo.com I learned an interesting technique which is basically distorted sine sub bass. Step 1: have a pure sine tuned to your sub frequency, which gives you a very controlled and very powerful fundamental. Step 2: mult that to another pathway, distort the hell out of it to taste, highpass filter it so you can add it on top of your pure sub without problems, and do other filtering plus leveling for control to taste. The results are i) you get a powerful controled sub ii) you get a fizzy or nasty top you can mix in to taste iii) you can CV or otherwise change the top for lots of expression / variety iv) everything tracks pitch, gliss and dives perfectly. I've done this in VSTs but not yet my eurorack setup, should work fine in eurorack.
-- nickgreenberg

That technique may stem from the way bass is usually recorded. Duplicate tracks, one low-passed stays clean, the other hi-passed gets distortion.
Sounds like a very interesting idea to apply that to the Eurorack mindset. I'm definitely going to try it.

I hadn’t thought about it from a recording perspective.

The demonstration scenario I saw for this technique is literally all in a DAW (Live) with a VST sine as the source and sub, and a copy of that source/sub then routed to literally anything one might imagine usable as a distortion / waveshaper. They illustrate it with IZotope Trash2 which is certainly a distortion unit, but also with compressors super overdriven to become nonlinear and distorting. Actually that’s kind of the magic of this technique, is that with enough input gain into the subsequent processor you can get all kinds of grit and nonlinearity from processors you would never really expect to use as distortion. Then on the back end you use filtering and level to get just as much sizzle bright or harsh as you want. And all of it it very dynamic/playable and all of it tracks the source pitch perfectly. It’s an exciting and bottomless technique IMO, one I need to keep remembering and practicing.

Glad it’s of interest to you. Yes check it out!! Cheers, NG

i have used theabove technique for many years in the DAW.

have ordered the A-160-2

next week i will get a D.o.m.i.x.x mixer module from Bloodcells audio
and i finally can start to use my Eurorack system

Of course, it's worth noting that my finest bass patch of all time (it DAMAGES things!) was programmed on my Casio CZ-101. It's not always necessary to go with modular, after all...

can someone explain to me have a patch this up to work???from my Synth tech E352 through the Doepfer clock divider?

can someone explain to me have a patch this up to work???from my Synth tech E352 through the Doepfer clock divider?
-- Broken-Form

A square wave from your oscillator will work well. Though some oscillators only allow one waveform to output at a time, so if you're using a triangle wave or something else... you might have issues. As far as mixing it in, there are two ways:
A) You mix both oscillators together at the output and then continue down your patching chain.
B) Your sub gets its own independent envelope generator, VCA and then is mixed in to the original signal at the very end of the signal chain.

My opinion is that it would be easier to patch in a second, independent oscillator tuned an octave or two down and just patch the same pitch CV and gate CV to it.

Agreed, square wave into the Doepfer clock divider, and lower frequencies out from that. I've confirmed this works with my setup.

Additionally what I'd generally want to use:
-- original signal running into a buffered mult, so I can take the source signal, feed it to the Doepfer, but also have 1+ copies to send for mixing etc
-- a mixer to take 1 or more outs from the Deopfer and mix in various ways (with or without the original)

Hi All,

Or instead of the Doepfer A-160-2 clock divider, one could consider to take an audio divider (hence frequency divider) the Doepfer A-115 for example and it's cheaper than the A-160-2 :-)

https://schneidersladen.de/en/doepfer-a-115-audio-divider?number=120090

You can hear an example of that in my still to release review report of the Doepfer A-106-5 SEM filter, "The crazy bit" part 2 of the demo I made for the A-106-5 SEM filter on Soundcloud:

The small part from about 0:43 till about 1:30, I am using there the A-115 audio divider. Before and after that section I am using the Doepfer A-116 Waveform processor instead. Kind regards, Garfield.

i will test it out on monday

also think i will get the Doepfer A-115 think that will be very usefull in my setup

Hello, if you are post processing this plugin is great to add sub to your music if its lacking - its on sale for £39.99 and you can get £20 off with a voucher from them.

https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/unfiltered_audio_bass_mint.html

Hello, if you are post processing this plugin is great to add sub to your music if its lacking - its on sale for £39.99 and you can get £20 off with a voucher from them.

https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/unfiltered_audio_bass_mint.html
-- greenfly

my goal is to get a fat sub in the modular itself without a lot of post processing,but thanks for the advice

wondering if i can use the alm chalkboard for this.

the goal is to have a drone from my E352 as "Clean" Drone and then hae the drone sent through chalkboard as a Sub-Drone and then send the 2 to different channels on my Bloodcells audio D.O.MIXX

Won't work. The Beast's Chalkboard is simply a DC offset generator coupled with an adder, with the offset adjustable only in 1V steps. It doesn't accept audio as such, although there might still be some "abuse potential" there inasmuch as you'll be shifting audio, but at the same time you'll run into the issues associated with having DC in your audio path, which you DO NOT WANT because...well:

Now, what you REALLY want here if you want waveform mangling AND suboctaves...that would be something like Tiptop's Fold processor, which does both admirably. Split your E352's audio out for the "clean" line and the "dirty", then use the Fold on the latter. This gets even MORE fun because you have separate outputs for the wavefolder and octave divider (which ALSO offers levels per suboctave!), meaning you can have THREE potential outputs from the E352 with different "flavors". Oh, and the Fold will also take two inputs and "mix" them through its circuits, sometime with really amazing results. Useful thing, really.

thanks will put the fold processor on my list.

already have the doepfer clock divider but cant figure out how i get it to work to get what i want?

@Broken-Form, what is the problem you're having? Can you describe the patch setup you're using and what's not meeting your intentions?

I can tell you from experience on this end, my own "fat sub quest" took me on a runaround for YEARS. After a lot of buying stuff I thought would help and it didn't, I'm now pretty convinced my studio room is incapable of good bass performance (between 20-100hz); a credible studio acoustics shop confirmed my room issues, and quoted me about $9k of custom treatments to start to handle the problems. I will be making that investment at some point but don't have the $s now. The good news is I have some headphones that give me a pretty satisfying bass experience (Blue Microphones Mix Fi); yes it's not ideal to do all soundwork on headphones, but these phones give me the artistic / visceral relation to bass when I'm looking for that... IMO they are the 2nd best thing to being in a great room with great speakers. I do most of my work on my nice studio monitors, and when doing critical bass work I switch monitoring as I know there are still bass problems in my room setup.

In other words, the "fat sub" issue is maybe coming from your instrument, or maybe it is your speaker/room setup? Getting a good sub from your instrument really should not be problematic. The "fattest" subs are often primarily a sub sine, or sub triangle.

Last, I should point out, the Novation Bass Station is actually brilliant at low end duties. Not Eurorack, but a very worthy (and cheap!) piece of kit.

Anyways, yes let us know what isn't working on your end and hopefully one of us can suggest a good fix.

In other words, the "fat sub" issue is maybe coming from your instrument, or maybe it is your speaker/room setup? Getting a good sub from your instrument really should not be problematic. The "fattest" subs are often primarily a sub sine, or sub triangle.
-- nickgreenberg

Very true. My actual fave subbass patch has actually caused physical damage...mind you, it was feeding into a 20 kW array of bassbins, which might have something to do with that. But what did I create this astonishing, pounding, tactile bass with, you ask?

A Casio CZ101.

Which pretty much proves another salient point: modular isn't always the right answer!

well i cant figure out how to set it up (patch it to work)with the doepfer clock divider?

Great techniques discussed here.

I use a Blue Lantern Modular Subharmonic Generator to achieve this and have had great results. This module outputs a copy of the original harmonic and 3 lower harmonics and can also act as a clock divider. I usually use the triangle or pulse wave out from the Rat King Modular Tone VCO and pass the subharmonic generator's output into it's out filter and LPG/VCA. I use Maths to supply the envelopes for both the master VCO and the SH voice, giving me the option to create alternative envelopes for the subharmonic's VCA and filter.

well i cant figure out how to set it up (patch it to work)with the doepfer clock divider?
-- Broken-Form

I've got this derived-square patch working on my system right now. Here's how I'm doing it:
1. square wave from any OSC patched to input of A160-2
2. take an output from A160-2: that's the result. Note this is POSITIVE voltage only.
3. apply a bit of offset (negative voltage) using a utility. I have ShadesV2 doing this. SISM would work fine, lots of others would work fine.

I'm getting a square wave at 1/2 rate. Varying settings on A160-2 gives me different pulse width on the output. Both audio and oscilloscope are showing me this works on my end. Note the result is just a lower version of the original square wave.

Of course, assuming you want to mix the original and the derived square, you'll need a copy (mult) of the original.

EDITED Oct 13th 2021, 19:11

well i cant figure out how to set it up (patch it to work)with the doepfer clock divider?
-- Broken-Form

I've got this derived-square patch working on my system right now. Here's how I'm doing it:
1. square wave from any OSC patched to input of A160-2
2. take an output from A160-2: that's the result. Note this is POSITIVE voltage only.
3. apply a bit of offset (negative voltage) using a utility. I have ShadesV2 doing this. SISM would work fine, lots of others would work fine.

I'm getting a square wave at 1/2 rate. Varying settings on A160-2 gives me different pulse width on the output. Both audio and oscilloscope are showing me this works on my end. Note the result is just a lower version of the original square wave.

Of course, assuming you want to mix the original and the derived square, you'll need a copy (mult) of the original.
-- nickgreenberg
Tanks godnat try this already godt a sism in My system.can i Use stackcables instead of a mult for the copy?

A couple follow ups:
-- stackables? Sure, you can try that. I almost always use active mults, so that I know what goes out equals what comes in.
-- getting the voltage offset (steps 3 above) may not be easy to do by ear. I was running the signal into Mordax DATA to view the waveforms. I don't have a good workaround to offer if you don't already have an oscilloscope handy. And I'm not totally sure what happens if the offset isn't fully "dialed in". I believe that would lead to passing DC to the outputs; what I'm not sure of is if DC would be filtered by downchain devices (such as audio outs or audio interface).

Stackcables (and any other type of passive mult) are fine for anything but pitch - in 99% of all other cases a tiny bit of voltage droop will not be noticed!

the only exception to this is some modules expect to be plugged into a buffered input - I find Maths needs to go through a buffer to some modules, for example

well i cant figure out how to set it up (patch it to work)with the doepfer clock divider?
-- Broken-Form

I've got this derived-square patch working on my system right now. Here's how I'm doing it:
1. square wave from any OSC patched to input of A160-2
2. take an output from A160-2: that's the result. Note this is POSITIVE voltage only.
3. apply a bit of offset (negative voltage) using a utility. I have ShadesV2 doing this. SISM would work fine, lots of others would work fine.

I'm getting a square wave at 1/2 rate. Varying settings on A160-2 gives me different pulse width on the output. Both audio and oscilloscope are showing me this works on my end. Note the result is just a lower version of the original square wave.

Of course, assuming you want to mix the original and the derived square, you'll need a copy (mult) of the original.
-- nickgreenberg

yes thanks for this,i got it working:)

glad this helped -- hope you got the sound you were looking for!

glad this helped -- hope you got the sound you were looking for!
-- nickgreenberg

Came to Thing abort it i forgot to do the mult Thing.i use sism to do the offset.should i do the mult aften sism?

Your original oscillator, you would mult that if you want a copy to send to a mixer to be able to mix the original sound in with the generated subs.

EDITED Oct 29th 2021, 20:09

Your original oscillator, you would mult that if you want a copy to send to a mixer to be able to mix the original sound in with the generated subs.
-- nickgreenberg
Right now my main osc is E352 that has 2 outputs.and right now my only mult is the one in links .so maybe i Will have to test with stackcables.

Also read that alm chalkboard can be used as a bufferen mult.so might have to test that out too

EDITED Oct 29th 2021, 20:38

stackables or passive mults would likely work fine for you in this situation.

Aha! I was working on adding new stuff and making corrections on EMW's listings, and the very thing needed here just happens to be one of their modules: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/emw-sub-osc-generator

The very thing, with 1 and 2 octave suboscillator, "tone" control (waveshaping, basically), fits in 6 hp and only costs $69 + shipping from Brazil. I would suggest going direct with EMW, also...their distribution can be spotty in some locations.

And oh, yeah...it's got its own 4-point passive mult to boot!

EDITED Nov 1st 2021, 01:38

Aha! I was working on adding new stuff and making corrections on EMW's listings, and the very thing needed here just happens to be one of their modules: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/emw-sub-osc-generator

The very thing, with 1 and 2 octave suboscillator, "tone" control (waveshaping, basically), fits in 6 hp and only costs $69 + shipping from Brazil. I would suggest going direct with EMW, also...their distribution can be spotty in some locations.

And oh, yeah...it's got its own 4-point passive mult to boot!
-- Lugia

that looks awesome,the thing is the tax to denmark is probaly gonna be way more than the price of the module itself,cant find any EU retailers?

just got a email from the EMW guys,they will send a bunch of sub-osc generator modules in their next shipment to Sonic-sales in germany

just got a email from the EMW guys,they will send a bunch of sub-osc generator modules in their next shipment to Sonic-sales in germany
-- Broken-Form

Hellzyeah! These should be quite useful, as they're JUST the suboscillator and the two-position waveshaper. A lot of times, you'll find the suboctaves tacked onto other devices, sort of like an afterthought, but this is tailor-made for subbass.

Definitely check their other stuff...EMW's been a real unsung hero in cheaper modules. They seemed to go through a bad patch a few years back, but they're back on mission again, apparently.

the modules will be available in Sonic-sales in about 2-3 weeks

im definatly getting one,thanks Lugia for pointing my awareness to these modules