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i wanted to try to make some conceptual contributions to the community, more that exactly plan out my next purchases. if you dont like the concept thats is fine, but i really wish yall would recommend specific swaps that keep the same footprint, because the size of the cases is also part of this concept. i wonder, though, if its just too abstract for yall, rather than being as flawed as yall claim.

If you found our initial advice restrictive, it's because most people seeking feedback here are actually planning on putting money into the hobby, which is why we were quick to try and steer you away from your designs (and they need work if you want to accomplish your goals). But first, I wanted to address this:

novel module combinations, sequencing options that enhance improvisation, racks with specific size constraints, layering multiple diverse sound sources, signature effects patch paths, specific rack modules that together create unduplicated sound, the idea of creating new previously non-existing instruments with modules as opposed to just assembling patches to match pre existing standard synth signal paths, etcetera. ... ...
-- singular_sound

To be honest, what you're describing is what modular synthesis is all about anyways. You've just listed reasons one gets into this hobby in the first place. To be able to go underneath the hood of a synthesizer and recraft it into the instrument of your choosing. A well designed rack can allow you to create a unique and new instrument every time you patch, and creates soundscapes unlike any other. You're clearly enthusiastic about the sonic and improvisational possibilities that modular opens up, which is great. What @Zacksname and others are suggesting is that until you've had the opportunity to play around with a modular system (real or virtual), it's hard to figure out what the actual possibilities and limitations really are. We welcome contributions and interesting patching techniques or module combinations, but without trying it for yourself, you miss out on the (what I consider necessary) headscratching over how modules (and therefore logic circuits, voltages, etc.) might work together and the discovery of what their sonic territory really can be.

Of course, modular synthesis has an unfortunately high barrier to entry (namely, cost), so we recommend attempting VCV Rack or Voltage Modular, which are free to moderately priced. That and watching lots of online videos showing how different modules work and how to build racks (not just videos about what to buy). I personnally have found mylarmelodies and divkid to be particularly helpful but there are plenty of others. Also, asking questions on this and other forums. My first rack posts got knocked down, as well. I think most of us assumed you were about to jump headfirst into buying modules, which would a) eat up a huge amount of money and b) leave you dissatisfied with this hobby once you realize the pieces just don't work the way you think they will. No one wants that.

also, @hgsynth part of the concept is that they all just get summed up on the 5th case, and there is no clock or cv going between them, so they really are like 4 separate instruments, and the rhythm on the scrooge organically always slightly contrasts with the rhythm on the tukra, controlled by two completely separate clock circuits, hypothetically with two performers synergistically tweaking thier knobs.

What you're actually describing is just a big, multivoiced rack separated into five cases. I'm not seeing five instruments in your set-up, just a very large, somewhat unbalanced rack. Noise and "pure tones" aplenty, but not much in the way of sculpting or doing any of the interesting conceptual stuff you're talking about.

Since you want to get conceptual, a few things to clarify:
* a) when I hear the phrase "pure tones," I'm thinking of an unfiltered and un-eq'd sound wave coming out of an oscillator. Sure, it's a sound, but is that actually the sound you're talking about here?
* b) you need to decide what constitutes an 'instrument', and how many complete ones you want in this set-up. Is an instrument a case? Is it a sub-collection of modules within the rack? Can a single module be an instrument (like the Taiga)?
* c) do you want each case to work on it's own, or must it be plugged into the others to work?
* d) what sound shaping abilities do you want to have?
* e) do you want the music to be generative or change over time on its own?
* f) don't forget logistics - tiny knobs and tighlty packed modules get pretty hard to tweak once all the cords are patched in.

The list goes on...

These are all things to think about as you continue to design your instrument/s and work on your ideas. Modular is an exciting hobby but unfortunately hard to get started with due to the prohibitive costs. Those of us who comment here typically want to make sure anyone starting this hobby does so fully informed, since we don't want someone burning money and getting burnt out. Keep building and planning racks, but don't rely on Claude to judge them... there's a lot of considerations to making a rack succesful, and it typically is not about having lots of sound sources.

Anyways, good luck with your music making and rack planning!

No offense meant, but I think we're a bit unclear on your goals here, and it's hampering our ability to assist/communicate our points.

You say you want "full osc sound," but I'm not sure that's how I'd describe the "neanderthals destroying atlantis" example you gave. I agree with @ku14 that if this is the sound that you're after, than there are far cheaper and easier ways to achieve it than a bank of sound sources, even if you want to do it with modular synths. From your responses, I also wonder if you've had much opportunity to play around with a modular system, because once you start patching you'll realize why having a system of all oscillators and no modulators or vcas actually kind of sucks (and is potenitially unusable), as @progspiration mentioned. So, a few thoughts and questions.

First: are you actually planning on purchasing any of these modules, or are these a thought experiment? Our advise changes if you're thinking of putting real money down (and this collction would constitute quite a lot of it). If this is a thought experiment, sure, happy to entertain, but if you're really aiming to get that sound and have some money to spend, I think you'll find there are better ways. We'd rather you learn from our own GAS mistakes than by putting a pretty penny down on a system won't do what you want.

Second, you ask us to consider each of these instruments as "a standalone instrument", but suggest you want them to work harmoniusly as a 4+1 instrument played by several players. What's your actual aim here? As standalone instruments, these simply don't work, but if you are actually thinking of this as one big rack broken into four parts plus an extra rack for mixing... ok, well, then there might be something to work with here, if you're open to suggestion and there are patch cables long enough. We can't forget the realities of patch cable length when planning your musician staging.

Third, have you tried VCV Rack or Voltage Modular before? Great free/cheap ways to give this stuff a try. Once you have, you'll know that it takes a lot of parts to make the system go, and even more parts to affect musical changes. Unlike a complete synth voice, think of modules as a synth exploded into parts. Yes, you can take just the oscillators and hook a bunch together in a rack, but the synth really needed those other circuits to make the oscillators do anything other than put out raw unfiltred tones.

We'd love to assist, but I think I'm just confused as to what you're seeking. Also, please no more Claude. My eyes can't handle the formatting of the chatbots.

Cheers and best of luck!

Is this instrument primarily used as a sound mangler, or do you have other intentions/goals for it, as well?

Just for future consideration, I make copies of my racks before posting a comment. That way, even if you play around with the rack later, the version associated with the comment will stay the same. Makes it easier to comment on your rack without providing obsolete advise.

Speaking of which, I typed the below out before seeing that you actually did add a number of utilities. That being said, I'll say it anyways and risk being a dead-horse beater. Utilties. It's hard to understand how cool and useful they are until you play around with them and see what they can do. To that end, I highly recommend the micro Ornaments & Crime (particualy with the Hemisphere firmware loaded). Really gives you a great selection of utility options in only a few hp and only a bit of menu diving. Getting one really opened up my rack when I was just starting. Once you identify what type of utilities you use frequently, you can buy a dedicated module. I see that you have the 3xMIA and 3xMIX (I love the 3XMIA, just wish it had a detent at 0), but as you spend time with the hobby, you'll see what other options there are and what they can do.

Next, lets talk signal flow. You've got two cases, are they side by side or on top of each other? How do you want the signal to travel around the system? Some people feel it doesn't matter (since it's modular after all), but I'm a visual person and like to have my signal go generally left to right /up to down. Thinking about how the signal will move through your system may help you realize where there are gaps in function.

Hope some of my rambles are useful. Anyways, good luck!

Unplug all modules from the power bus. Reconnect the modules one by one. This might help identify if a specific module is causing the noise. If you find the source, consider using a "Noise Killer Plug" on the problematic module: https://www.midi-hardware.com/?section=prod_info&product=NKP

-- modular01

Oh my goodness. I've never heard of these but oh wow they seem useful. Thanks for teaching me something new today!

A few thoughts.

1. Add a link to your post rather than a jpg so we can go to your rack directly and see the modules.
2. Rack size. You're asking to do quite a lot in one small rack. What case do you have, or are you still looking? Unless you have the rack already, your should go bigger than you think you need. You're gonna expand, no doubt about it.
3. Drums. Unfortunately, it's probably going to be a lot more cost-effective to do drums out of the rack. However, it's by no means impossible to do them in rack (I often do), it just it typically takes a good deal of patching and hp to make them work as fully as outboard gear.
4. Modulators and utilities. Can't be overstated how useful these are in bringing the system together. Think of them as the framing pieces that allow you to use your bigger ticket items. In my opinion, these are what make modular systems distinct from other synthesizers - gaining access to the usually hidden circuitry and allowing for unusual and sound-warping signal paths. This subject has been talked about a bunch on here, so I'd definitely search forums for deeper discussions.

Hope these help!

Sorry you're not getting feedback. Mind clarifying a few points?

• What's the overall goal with this? Is is for FM drones and harmonies, or is this a rhythm instrument, or supposed to be an all-in-one type of instrument?
• You say you have a keystep pro. Do you have any other outboard gear you're using with this?
• How much of this do you already own, versus just planning to get? Do have a case yet?

Admittedly, I'm not personnaly familiar with most of your modules, and I'm overall entirely confused by the Tukra, so my feedback is only general. However, I'm not seeing much in the way of modulators and core utilities (vcas, LFOs, attenuators, inverters, offsets, etc...). Maybe your modules can cover some of these functions (the Tukra looks like it might be able to do some of this). However, utilities are the glue that actually tie the big-ticket items together into a singular instrument and shouldn't be overlooked. If you do have hp to spare, I think it might behoove you to add some. The ones I mentioned above should be the main focus, but there are plenty of interesting circuits out there that can add surprising magic to your patching (I simply adore comparators and sample and holds). However, like I said, I'm not overly familiar with this suite of modules, so maybe I'm not seeing some functionality.

Maybe others who know these modules better can add on. Good luck with your modular journey!

Sorry you're having this trouble. Nothing mutes the joy of music making quite like a tech issue. I don't have any solutions, but bumping this in case more people will comment with ideas; it would suck for you to get this close to enjoying modular only to be stymied by annoying noise.

Though I don't have solutions, I do have a few thoughts.
* Is your audio coming through clean, but also has this noise, or is the audio itself distorted?
* Can you describe your external interface situation / what is the outboard mixer?
* What are you runnning your pre-amp module into / at what point are you introducing the balanced cables?
* Do you have a recording of the sound? Maybe one of the more keen-eared electrically minded folks here can identify it.
* Output module - I'm not familiar with your output module, and I certainly don't mean to bad-mouth a company I'm not familiar with, but perhaps it's introducing some noise? Also, it's description on the manufacturing page says that it's main use is to go from line level (significantly lower signal) to eurorack level (significantly higher signal). If you're already putting a eurorack level signal in there and adding gain, I'd imagine some noise or distortion would be introduced.

• Though I hate to suggest buying another thing, it might be worth trying a different output module, one that can attenuate the eurorack level signal, rather than add gain. What type depends on your workflow and what you're looking for. I'm familiar with the Expert Sleepers' ES-9 and Happy Nerding's Isolator, both of which I can recommend as being clean, but are very different. I've also heard excellent things about the cleanliness of the sound of Joranalogue's Transmit 2 and Frap Tools' CGM/mixer series. All of those directly interface with guitar / balanced cables and may make your system a little more streamlined.

Hope some of this is useful. Best of luck getting to the music making soon!

Just want to chime in with more love for the O&C, I keep two in my rack and they're both running the hemispheres firmware, which is even less menu-ey plus gives you access to a ton of simple utilities. Plus you can run two at a time (or the shift register can utilize all four channels). Super easy to switch from quantizer to logic to S&H to comparitor to envelope to chaotic modulation or whatever you need in the moment. Cheers!
-- Progspiration

Here here! Luckily, O&C was one of the earlier modules I got, so it really shaped my thinking about building my rack, as well as introducing me to the possibilities of generative music. Definitely a worthwhile module for those looking for a swiss army knife style tool. Even though mine is now pretty dedicated to a specific job and not as prominant in my rack, I still end up using it in most of my patches. Cheers to you, as well!

3. Musical goals are really just learning more. I have some Elektron boxes, an Arturia Minifreak, Moog subharmonicon, and the Moog grandmother. Modular has inspired me through the unique interactions with the instrument and with the modules themselves. I love surprising myself, realizing new sounds or patterns I can get with interesting patching I hadn't thought of before, and learning more about deeper functions.
4. Yes on those suggestions! I had been thinking about a matrix mixer because I know hardly anything about them, but it seems like another one of those "possibilities are endless" tools. I will check out the T-43. I had been trying to stay away from O&C just because I want to do less menu-diving....although I know it's an amazing jack of all trades.

-- greg0hh

Interesting note about reducing redundancy. Totally makes sense when hp is precious, however, don't be so quick to remove some of it, redundancy can be really useful as a patch grows (as they always do) from few cables to a full on spaghetti monster. Some people prefer single-function-per-module, but I like the depth of a module that can be used/misused in multiple ways. It's one of the reasons I'm such a superfan of Joranalogue, for example. No unitaskers there (shoutout to vintage Alton Brown), and such deep functionality.

Speaking of which, have you checked out the Compare 2 Practical User's guide yet? It's linked on the Joranalogue website. Really well illustrated and comprehensive patching guide to deeper functions on the Compare 2. Similarly, the now classic Maths Illustrated Supplement, available online, will provide path demonstrations for a bunch of functionality.

Other possible utilities that I've used to support interesting interactive patching are routers like Joranalogue's Switch 4, Doepfer's A-182-1 switched multiple, and Instruo's tain cv controlled switch. Also, I just love sample and hold circuits (After Later's SHTH is great and only 2 hp), so useful.

Totally understand the menu-diving hesitancy; it's not a dynamic way to interact with the system. Though to be fair, the o_c only has two levels to it's menu. It's super-useful in a pinch for smaller racks and gives good exposure to a host of potential uiltiies so you can try them before you buy a module. As the rack grows it gets somewhat less helpful, however, and for me at this point it's a dedicated quantizer and shift register. I barely touch the menu anymore. However, if you're not into menus, it's definitely skippable; your rack looks like it would be fun to play just fine regardless.

Hope this is useful and have fun!

Not a bad start. A few things jump out:
* VCAs - it seems to be a universal truth that you always need at least one more VCA than you currently have available. You'll need more, particularly if you want to start adding motion to your signals at mutiple parts of the signal path. Additionally, your fx modules and final mixer are stereo, how cool if you had enpugh VCAs for stereo signal management?
* LFOs - batumi is a wonder in a small package, and I hear that version 2 is even better. Zadar though can also do some pretty complex waveforms, but I think I would want to go with a dedicated LFO personally. In addition to batumi, consider the ochd and it's expander from Divkid/Instruo. Small footprint, but quite organic feeling motion and the expander packs some cool funtions.
* Attenuators - You'll want to tame the lfos and any other cv, particularly if you enjoy random voltages. VCAs can also work for this, if you had them to spare.

Other things to consider if you find you have the space:
* Matrix mixer (Doepfer a-138m is what I'm familiar with but there are several out there) - great for blending signals (both uni- and bipolar) and super useful for feedback. The only downside is the hp, but there are other matrix mixers out there with smaller footprints.
* Sample and hold - I just love these circuits and find them so useful. That's all.
* Comparator - Same. Specifically the Joranalogue Compare 2.
* Crossfader - WMD axys (stereo) or even the Joranalogue Morph 4 (mono). Might be useful for drones.

Hope this is useful. Best of luck!

Not a bad start at all, but a few things to consider:

1. Do you plan on growing the rack / what case is this you're using?
2. How do you use this rack with external gear? I see you have a pedal interface, is this rack more of an effects unit, or is it more of a standalone instrument?
3. Any particular musical goals with this instrument?
4. I love that you've discovered the compare 2 and sequential switch. Those specific utility modules, along with vpme.de's T-43, doepfer's matrix mixer, and the Ornaments & Crime, made a world of difference to my own workflow and understanding of how to build an instrument and manipulate voltages (and therefore, sound).

Hey! A few questions / points to help:

1. Please provide a link to your rack, rather than just the jpg, that way we can explore it more easily.
2. Do you already own the case/modules, or is this all still in the planning phase?
3. What type of sounds/music are you aiming to make (aka, what do you mean by "experiment with textures")?
4. How interactive do you want the rack to be? Do you want it to be more playable and responsive to commands, or more generative and "suggestable," rather than directly controllable?

To your specific question, no, I do not think you have too many modulation sources; on the contrary, I would certainly suggest more. Something like a cv controllable LFO for example (for ever-changing modulation in addition to what Maths and Zadar can do - free them up for different uses). The longer I spend with modular synths, the more I realize that modulators and utilities are really what make the systems interesting. Sure, oscillators and filters and effects are fun, but any synth can do that, you don't need to dig into modular for those features. But if you want to have control over the fiddly cv details, want to be able to set up (and maybe make hands-free) changing parameters over time, or really explore unique methods of sound creation (for example, have you ever tried using the Zadar as an oscilator, or the Rene as a modulator, or the Maths as a filter - or anything really), well that's where modular shines. And for that, you should spend some more time looking at modulators and utilities. In general, I'd rather fewer sounds sources and more utilities/modulators than the other way around. What you have is a good start, but I'd think about how much space you're dedicating to effects and whether that will get you the synthesizer experience you're looking for.

You should update with a link and let us know how much of your rack is planned vs. already owned, and we can suggest further. Good luck with your sounds explorations!

Hi Rackbrute wigglers (and everyone else)!

I'm writing this in hopes that it is useful to new modular users, but maybe more experienced users can chime in with alternative suggestions, as well. When I started my modular journey, it was with a Minibrute 2s and a 6u Rackbrute. My goal was to create a versatile, semi-generative synth that could pretty much do it all. Foolishly, I thought that a Rackbrute would satisfy my GAS... Several years and a few Mantis cases later... yeah...

Anyways, a little while ago I was invited to spend a weekend hiking and chilling in a mountainside cabin, and my friend specifically requested that I bring a small synth! I ended up with my trusty Minibrute and Rackbrute. You can see what I actually did in my public racks (called "C. Travel Set - Old Rag Feb 24"), but I've since refined it to the current version. Since this satisfies my original goal, and since I know I'm not the only Rackbrute owner on here, I figured I'd share my thinking.

Note, this is a real rack, so I am only listing modules I actually own. However, there are a thousand other modules that can get you to this place, so beginners shouldn't go out and buy something just because I list it. Similarly, just because I have my way of thinking about building a synth, it doesn't mean it has to be your way.

When I build a rack, I like to keep in mind the signal path, and I tend to visualize it moving left to right. I also tend to think in blocks or chunks of functions (I like my modulators together, my sound sources together...). However, in a small rack, you compromise.

So...I start in the top left with my clocking. Pam's is my main clock. It is also extremely versatile and can provide plenty of randomness and finesse as needed. Clocking is further helped with the 4ms QCD, which is a damn fun module and allows Pam's to do more interesting euclidean rhythms. Bottom left, I have my modulators. Since I tend towards generative music, I like the movement of my lfos and random voltages to be front and center and driving the music. Therefore, I have the delightful OCHD and expander, giving a refreshing motion and more random possibilities. Finally, since my friend requested some rhythmic music, I have a uGrids to finish out my triggering and gating (not to mention the massive sequencing power of the Minibrute 2s).

Utilities break! I sprinkle utilties in wherever they functionally seem to make sense. On top, the Link 2. Below is one of my favorite little utility modules, the After Later SHTH. Sample and hold AND track and hold (they're not the same!) are a wonderful pairing with LFOs and random voltages. Of course modulators and random voltages need taming, so the ever handy Happy Nerding 3xMIA does that work. Ok, random voltages, cool, now what? Well, I like to control them with the O_C's very handy quantizers (everything about the O_C is handy). And then another absolute favorite utility, vpme.de's T43, a musically informed voltage adder. I didn't know I needed a voltage adder until I needed one, and this one is amazingly fun to play and jam with. And then of course, Veils and a deep function generator in the Contour 1.

Phew, ok, all that and we haven't even gotten to the sound sources yet! Well, we start with the handy (and usefully 3 hp) Erica Pico drums and the BIA above. Yes, yes, the BIA rules for kicks, but I actually prefer it as a gnarly oscillator. So now, given that the Minibrute has 2 oscillators, we have three sound sources and a sampler. But wait, there's more! We have the almost cheat-code strenth combo of Rings and Beads. Below that, we have the Ikarie on wacky vcf duties. As fun as filters are, I find that I don't really need them if the oscillator is interesting enough. Finally for the audio path, the delay of the Nautilus and the fx of the FXAid XL. All together, that's 5 voices and a sampler and multiple fx (don't forget the onboard reverb on Beads, as well).

My final block is the output block. One more quad vca to reduce my voices and then a 4 channel stereo mixer in the Stmix because that's right, this little rackbrute is in stereo. Then the ES-9 because I have one and why not record multitrack if you can. Plus, you can connect to the computer.

The end result is that I have an instrument that can: be generative, be arhythmic or rhytmic, be playable/programmable, be multi-voiced, be stereo, be connected to the computer, and be multitrack recorded. All in a Rackbrute and Minibrute. And it only cost... ok, well, let's not look at that part.

Shit, this was long-winded. But hopefully someone finds it useful to see how another person plans when constructing a rack. I know I would have when I started. Best of luck!

I like the modules you choosed.
I think its a good starting point but more stuff will surely follow
PPl will say: "Get a bigger case"

Agreed that it's an interesting collection of modules to start with. Also, let me be the first person to live up to MCGM's prediction: you'll probably end up wanting a bigger case, sooner than later (no disrespect to the intellijel 4u intended). Building a small focused rack is certainly doable, but it comes with sacrifices and really requires you to know how to get the best functional bang for your buck hp wise. Again, totally doable, and you can build an amazing instrument in your selected case, but as a beginner the restricted hp makes things more difficult. Plus, despite what everyone tells themselves, eventually GAS will strike and you'll want to try something new that won't fit. Personally, I'm fond of the mantis cases, but there are plenty of others out there to consider.

More utillity modules like attenuverters, matrix mixer, offsets, vcas etc
You could add a dedicated filter even if the Ghost has one integrated
Vcas

-- MCGM

Agreed with all of @MCGM's comment, but really want to highlight this part. You'll get a whole lot more out of the modules you've already selected if you invest in utility modules like the ones listed, especially vcas. Let me also recommend LFOs. Something like the Ochd and it's really useful expander is great for slow organic changes.

As a side note, how were you planning to use the quantizer, was that for the Steppy? Quantizers are cool, but unless you have a specific use in mind, maybe not the best fit for the collection of modules you already have listed (the Pams can do some quantization, for example).

Anyhoo, good luck!

Edited because I made a typo.

EDITED Dec 27th 2023, 15:34

Fantastic post idea @ferranadsr. As modular newbies we hear over an over again that utilities are the key, but never exactly why or how.

I've made a small rack of some of my favorite utilties modules, in no particular order. They all get used frequently in my patches in a multitude of ways. There are plenty of others that are great, but I want to highlight these few. No need to deep dive into each, but wanted to give some general shoutouts. I'm also happy to explain how I use any specific module if you're curious.

Switches, mutes, mults - Oh my goodness, these have completely changed how I use my system. From being able to select between different channels in order to bring in different song sections to the fore, or sending cv to alternating sources, or using a sequential switch as a sequencer... Muting a channel on the fly or sending cv or audio suddenly to a different location... These make "playing" the system fun.

Matrix mixers, mixers, attenuators/verters, scaling, invert - Just great ways to manipulate and shape your signals and create really complex cv. Attenuators are absolutely essential for controlling modulators and randomness.

Precision adders/shifters - the t43 is so damn fun to play that I needed to include it. Also, it really helps move a song forward when you can just shift the melody's voltage by musically meaningful amounts.

Random, S&H/T&H, noise - Even if generative isn't your thing, don't overlook the power that randomness can add to your patches. I really enjoy sample/track and hold, and use it to rhythmically pick voltages from random sources like noise, or the delightful ochd expander to create meandering melodies (you'll need attenuators, of course!). Great for adding creating complex modulations.

I would say, to echo @liontel, that it was the ornaments and crime that helped me understand what utilties could do. I'd find myself using one applet or another for a while before realizing why I actually just needed that utility as a standalone. Then I'd explore a new applet. I haven't used the disting myself, but I assume it's a similar story.

Anyone else have favorite utility types or modules?

No advice, just a quick mention: Here is the 1HP minimalist module that matches the borders, which you can use to create the appearance of two cases side-by-side. It's what I use as a separator between my cases. https://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unknown-1hp-spacer-for-minimalist-rack

-- Toccata

Thanks! Also, I appreciate your rack design aesthetics, very cool.

How big is your case? How much room do you have to play with? Can't tell from your link if you have an extra row available or not.

I wanted to get some thoughts as I'm putting some final touches on the rack I'm going to build in the near future. I've got about 35% of the modules so far and things are working just how I want. I was hoping to see if anyone could point out some glaring gaps.

Bolded part is important here. If your rack is already doing what you want, then you're probably heading the right way. I think a lot of us (myself included) let our GAS lead the way, but if your rack is already contenting you, you're in good shape. That being said...

The 2 gaps I'm aware of are mixing and mod/utilities. I have enough for barebones mixing but it would be nice to make some more room. I have a decent amount of modulation sources and mixers but no logic, sequencers, etc, which I am somewhat ok with for now, but still open to suggestions.

Agreed that you've identified where you're lacking. A number of great analogies are floating around these forums about what utilties represent in a rack (I've been schooled more than once myself, if you want to go back through my posts). Without repeating them, it suffices to say that the utilities are what really make the disparate pieces of a system come together and allows interactions, modulations, and manipulations that are simply not possible otherwise.

The hard part with utilties is that the functions are often seemingly abstract and esoteric until you have experience with them. A precision adder makes sense by definition, but maybe doesn't seem so useful or life changing. After having one in my rack though, it's become indespensable. Same for my switches, clock modulator, sample/track and holds, matrix mixer, and mutes. All have seriously altered how I use my instrument in ways I would not have predicted. I don't think I could go back to a rack without them without being keenly aware of their absence. And that goes doubly for my vcas and attenuators, of which I am the poster child for never having enough when needed.

You actually have a good start on utilities, but you should really be relying much more heavily on them to help your cool sound manglers and modulators work to their fullest potentials. Thankfully, utility modules are usually cheaper, smaller, and more available than the fancy audio manipulators. Happy to provide specific module suggestions if you have specific needs or questions, but hesitant to just suggest you buy more things, particularly if you're satisfied already.

Hopefully one of the more power users can come along and provide more fulsome feedback, as I'm not as personally familiar with some of your modules as I'd like to be. However, I think the general point stands.

Good luck, and have fun.

I'm sure I'll be back in 6 months with an updated version of this question, but that's probably how it should be (we're all learning here, afterall). Thanks again!

highly likely! have fun

-- JimHowell1970

Thanks so much!

The modules that appear today do not always bring great innovations, but some try to go further by pushing limits (at the risk of specializing sometimes in a more limited use). But why not if they are of a high quality? The Qu-Bit Nautilus, in my opinion, is one of them. Thus I will gladly suggest it for the musical style sought here.

-- Sweelinck

Now that I've had a chance to experience a number of modules, I believe I'm starting to see what you mean. I think it's hard as a beginner (which in many ways, I still am) to understand that aspect of modular with all of the choices available. I would love to pick your brain about which modules you think are innovative and limit pushing. And most importantly, which ones you think are most musically inspiring to play. Because at the end of the day, isn't a direct line to our musical muses what we're all hoping for with our instruments?

Thanks!

Thanks so much all, very helpful!

@Sweelinck, I'm afraid my knowledge of 16th century French adages departed with Martin Guerre and has yet to return, so I'll trade you an old Yiddishism - "better an honest slap in the face than an insincere kiss." Agreed it's quite hard to ask for feedback once one's gone down the very pricey rabbithole of modular, but I'd rather have honest criticism than false praise. But don't worry, I take your critiques as completely constructive and not at all slap-like!

I'm actually pretty jazzed by this feedback. In retrospect, I eschewed a lot of audio manipulation modules until I was confident that I had an otherwise solidly working instrument and understood how to use a lot of the more "functional" modules (I tried to take @JimHowell1970's tagline seriously). Matrix mixers being a good example - it took quite a while until I actually understood just how flexible and useful one could be in a patch, so now I'm excited for number two (and a stereo one, at that!). Perhaps that A-119 should get a closer look as well, for the same reason.

So it's good to know that my planned rack is in a place where I can explore these sound sculpting modules more comfortably while also saving hp for the future. It's a little overwhelming trying to choose between the vast number of high-quality modules out there while worrying if the amazing demo videos that I rely upon represent a module's actual capabilities or rather the patching talents (and complementary background modules) of the musician filming. Particularly since it seems like a new game changer is coming out every few months. I just finished watching hours on the Spectraphon, for example. To that end, I'll definitely consider the Nautilus, as I see it covers ground I'm otherwise missing and seems fun to play (an issue of key importance to me nowawadays, and one that should have been from the very beginning). The Sinfonion as well, which I had not previously looked too closely at since I didn't realize my rack was large enough to support it, but might be a step in a very interesting direction, particularly with how many voices I plan to have available.

Regarding utilities, I'm a true believer now, so I'm all ears for suggestions. Figuring out mid-patch that I'm lacking the right number of attenuators or inverters or whatevers to accomplish my musical goal is an annoying tradition I'm not looking to continue. Aside from the aforementioned matrix mixers, I'd love to hear what other utilty modules you would consider integral to your systems.

I'm sure I'll be back in 6 months with an updated version of this question, but that's probably how it should be (we're all learning here, afterall). Thanks again!

Hi all,

After several years of tinkering and learning, and many, many iterations of "eureka, this shall be the final form!," I think I actually have a decent plan (my racks are public if you want to see how I've gone from A to B to C to.... whatever this is). However, as I try to figure out my last half-rack, I realize I'm at a loss. I hesitate to say it, but I think I might have my bases covered and have some room to spare. What do you think, what would you do with this last 36 hp? Am I overlooking something or missing some key utilities or functionality? Maybe I'm over-full of some type of module and have more space than I realize? Or maybe I should just be at peace knowing that I've got the space when the next new, must-have module shows up (looking at you Joranalogue). As you'll see, a lot of these modules are already in my collection, but I don't consider too much sacrosant, and am definitely open to selling and reconfiguring if I decide to shift directions.

Rack goals: Originally, it started as a companion to the microbrute 2s, but quickly started moving in the generative direction. Over the past few years, this has become my main instrument, and so I've tried to tailor it into a comprehensive multivoiced stereo system that can do both generative and nongenerative on it's own, but play well with other gear and the computer when wanted. No one style of music is aimed for and I'm not planning on doing too much heavy-duty chordal work, but I want to be able to cover as many bases as possible. That being said, I seem to make a lot of loosely rhythmic ambient soundscapes, and that's quite fun.

General design plan: The instrument consists of a microbrute 2s and a 6u rackbrute and with two mantis cases (come on tiptop, start shipping those black cases already...). The rackbrute is predominantly cv and clock generation and manipulation. The top mantis covers sound sources and shaping, and the bottom case is predominantly for sound manipulation and physical interaction with the synth (I am a very hands-on player). Some choices were made for odd-number-hp reasons (like the pico dsp), and some placements are simply because I couldn't figure out how else to fit them (like Maths in the bottom row), but most everything else earns it's place and spot naturally.

So, what do you think? Any recommendations for this last 36 hp?

Thanks!

Much easier if you copy/paste the link into the comment, then we get to see your rack.

I'll let others speak to your specific goals as they're a bit out of my knowledge zones, but one thing to think of right off the bat is how you will be developing, changing, and manipulating your control voltages? You say you're sequencing and using the DAW for effects (how are you interfacing, exactly?), but one of the joys of modular is using voltages in unexpected and dynamic ways. I feel like this system as is gives a lot of audio manipulation but not much CV manipulation. For example, other than the two lfos (with only square or tirangle to choose from) on the Kobol, how will you be changing parameters over time without manual tweeking? Wiggling knobs is obviously fun, but a lot of what makes modular special is that the aspects of synthesis that are usually hidden inside a synthesizer are available to us out in the open, allowing for dynamic shifting of parameters over time. Look into utilities, which are the tools to make this happen. You have the disting, which provides a ton of algorithms, but is not the easiest to navigate and doesn't give you access to too many things at once. As for recommendations, unfortunately, there's no one size fits all, but attenuators, inverters, function generators, slew limiters, etc are great places to start looking. More lfos, or at least mults to help you make more of what you already have, should also be considered.

Anyways, there's no one size fits all as I said, and I don't want to recommend just buying more things, but I think you should consider where you plan to take this rack and seriously think about the utilities that will help you make the most of it. If you think of some motion you want the voltages to have, there's probably a utility to help with it.

One more note, if you're already planning on being heavily connected to the computer, consider a dc-coupled interface or something like the ES-8 or ES-9 (expensive, but very useful) to allow you to interact with VCV rack and other computer based cv manipulation tools. It will save a lot of hp and money in the long run, if that's a route that looks fun to you.

Best of luck.

A few things jump out...

First, are you planning on racking the subharmonicon and you actually have two rows available, or is that just for representation? If the former, I'd recommend keeping the subharmonicon in it's case and keeping the hp available. Also, will you be connecting this to the other rack, or is it completely standalone?

60 hp is really small for modular. While you absolutely can build a rack in that space (depending on your goals, I'd think), it's not so simple. You have to be quite selective about what makes it in if you're going to get something that works as intended. If a bigger rack is possible, you won't regret it

I'm not seeing a lot of modulators. Yeah, there's Pams, which gives plenty of interesting gates, envelopes, and attenuation, but how else will you be generating cv signals or moving parameters? You need to consider LFOs. Something like the Xaoc Batumi gives you a bunch in a decent footprint, and Divkid's Ochd (now with expander!) is quickly becoming essential in my rack.

Also, you don't have the utilities that will be necessary to get the most out of your modulators. Attenuators, VCAs, slew limiters, s/h, you'll get a lot of modulating mileage about these types of modules. If you're looking to explore sounds, don't discount randomness. Thank you Pams for offering this, but look at something like Instruo's tagh is an interesting option to add more random flavor.

Good luck!

A few general points:

1) Think of ergonomics and playablity. If it's not easy and fun to play, you won't end up using it. Good on 2hp for doing an amazing job filling a niche, literally, but you really need to think about the playability of lots of little knobs next to each other. Are you really going to be able to comfortably tweak a parameter without knocking a different knob by accident? You should be thinking about spacing and tweakability as you go, so the system doesn't end up being a pain to play.

2) VCAs. I think a cascading VCA has more potential than 4 independent VCAs. Hard to beat 8 VCAs in that footprint, but you're missing out on some interesting functionality.

3) Drums in rack. People often caution against going drums in rack cuz it's not the most price or space effective way of getting drums, but hey, you do you. Personally, I think they're fun. However, you might want to consider a cv controllable sampler like vpme.de's quad drums, a bitbox, or the assimil8or (which is an absolute dream, by the way). They aren't analog, but they will give you a tremendous amount of flexibity in a relatively small footprint. They tend to be pricey, however.

4) Too much hp spent on sound sources. Sorry, but in a rack this size, you should be limiting your oscillators and sound sources so you can spare room for the other types of modules (like utlities) that really help set modular apart.

5) Utilities! You have attenuators and VCAs and mixers, but there are some interesting other options that can play nicely with rhythm based music. Logic modules, comparators, clock modulators, routers/switches, and sample and holds are just a few types of modules that can really help add intricacy and complexity to your sequences and rhythms and give you a ton of flexibilty. Take some time looking through the different utilities listed on here, or watch some videos about the types listed above. You'll probably be getting ideas popping off in no time.

6) Computer connections. Depending on what you're aiming for you might be interested in connecting your system directly to your computer. That way you can record directly to your DAW or, more interestingly, use your rack in conjunction with software modular programs like VCV rack or voltage modular (I think there are a few others now, too). Something like Expert Sleeper's ES-8 or ES-9 (both come in black) do this magically.

Anyways, best of luck!

EDITED Nov 17th 2023, 22:20

I think it kind of depends on the style of case you have, and whether you care about color matching your panels or not. However, I generally agree with what @bopodoq says. I tend to visualize the signal path as going bottom left > top left > top right > bottom right.

Clocks and sequence / pattern creaters, etc create the signals on the bottom and send them up to be modulated, quantized, and played with. The VCOs are top left and send their lovely cacophonies right and then down towards to filters, fx, and audio manipulators. Finally the bottom right has some utilities and the in/outs.

I also like to consider how much I will be playing a particular module, and how many cables are going to be going in and out of it. I keep the modules that are more manipulatable around the outside of the case, to make them easier to play, while the set and forget ones can sit happily on the inside, buried in the spagehetti. Maybe it's just me, but reaching into the heart of a patch to delicately wiggle small knobs is not the most fun part of the modular experience.

Questions: Do you really have an extra empty row? I'm jealous. Also, any thought as to what type of music/sounds you want to get out of this rig? You have quite a nice collection of modules here; without too much tweaking you could turn this into a pretty beastly instrument, depending on what you're goign for.

EDITED Oct 23rd 2023, 04:13

Out of curiousity, what is your goal for this rack? You have a nice start to a synth here, I'd say maybe think about more lfos, attenuators, and vcas. But more specific recommendations really depend on what you're going for with this instrument.

Great question. The Minibrute 2s is a beast and has a lot of depth. It was my first real taste of what (semi)modular can do, and well, just things kept growing from there. Don't be surprised if you're in the market for another case in a year (GAS is real!).

What you have planned already seems like a pretty solid selection of modules. You need more utilities, however. They make all the difference when building a rack. The MB2s generously gives a vca, attentuators, and inverter, but you'll quickly find they are not enough, and are missing attenuverting. VCAs get used up real fast, so you may want to consider additional VCAs to the Veils. I highly recommend something that can attentuate/attenuvert and offset (in addition to Maths, of course). Happy Nerding's 3x MIA is perfect, but there are other good utilties out there, as well. You may want to consider a mult, as well, if you have a few hp to spare.

A few other honorable mentions if you have the space:
* Matrix mixer - great for blending audio or cv and can be stereo if you want. Doepfer's A-138m is perfect.
* S&H / T&H - sampling/tracking and holding a voltage has all sorts of uses, and can be used well with random voltage or smooth random (the MB2s has some random options already). ALA's SHTH or DivKid's RND Step would work well.
* Switches - something like Doepfer's A-151 sequential switch might be of interest in helping sen signals to different locations with a trigger.

Whatever you get, I'm pretty sure it'll be a whole lot of fun noise. Enjoy!

Thanks, these are incredble. Do you mind sharing how you think about planning/building a rack? I know you said they're kinda of anarchistic, but do you have a goal with each rack, or do you let them grow organically?

Yeah, I have VCV rack just never got around to actually using it with hardware... Clicking with mouse is what I'm trying to reduce.
-- ratman77531

I hear that... I'm also trying to find my own way to reduce the computer as much as possible. I just didn't want to start suggesting buying more modules when you're already set up for the free stuff.

But if already have GAS, then you really can't go wrong with more VCAs, and a utilities "swiss army knife" type module. I really meshed with uOrnaments and Crime running Hemispheres - it provides some very interesting functions and has both a shift register and a quantizer, wonderful for "psychodelic-like weird" stuff, and only 8 hp. With the remainder you could do something like Happy Nerding's 3xVCA (6hp), or maybe even a 2hp dual VCA leaving room for a dual LPG for plucky sounds and variety. There's really a number of ways to use the extra hp depending on your goals, but I think VCAs and utilities are what you should focus on.

Good luck!

Hmmm, guess I didn't see the expander... Without VCV rack or similar then you will want to consider some further utilities for the remaining 15 hp that you have. What are you aiming for with this rack? In any case, I recommend s/h (I really like After Later's SHTH, which is quite powerful in 2 hp), more vca's (happy nerding 3xVCA or a veils clone), and maybe something further swiss army knives like like Frap Tools 321 or SSF Toolbox if you can still find one.

Also, if you've already got the ES-9 and Ableton, might as well get VCV Rack, it's free afterall. It will open up a lot of potential utilities so you can see which ones you use the most.

Modular is Sh!t you should get a Banjo!

Looks like a pretty sound rack to me.
-- wishbonebrewery

Agree, banjo's rule.

Are you using the ES-9 to connect with VCV rack or other software? If so, this thing looks pretty beastly and you can get what's I'd say is missing virtually. However, if not, or just because you have the blank panel spaces, I could suggest the Batumi expander, which gives you access to more LFO shapes, and some other utilities or random voltage generators? Things like mutes or routers might make this more interactive and fun to play, as well.

i understand there are a lot of sound sources already and im missing some key utilities. but what would you all recommend? attenuators? more vcas? more lfos/envelopes? i know a mixer will be needed. a filter? what am i missing?

-- itsdakota

Honestly, yes to all of the above. I'd highly recommend something like XAOC's Batumi or DivKid's Ochd. Both will get you plenty of dynamic motion. Attenuators are necessary to tame the signals, particularly randomness coming from o-coast, and you'll want to consider other functionality, such as inversion and offsetting. Happy Nerding's 3xMIA and Frap Tools 321 might be of interest. Utilities such as sample and hold/track an hold, logic, and comparators might but fun to use with the random voltages, as well. Also, I'd recommend a matrix mixer, like Doepfer's A-138m, so you can blend signals, mix, attenuate/vert to make things complex. Really great for exploring feedback, as well.

One interesting module to consider is Joranologue's Morph4 (honestly, pretty much any of their modules are worth considering). On the surface it is 4 cascading VCAs (which you need, anyways) but with cv control over some very intereting parameters that make it great for crossfading audio or cv. I'm still learning it myself, but it definitely seems to lend itself to dynamic motion. Also, more VCAs, yay.

Good luck!

First off, if you copy and past the link to the rack, we'll get to look at the rack itself and not a jpg, which really isn't useful.

Second, other folks can give you specific recommendations to patch the sounds you're looking for, but don't forget about self-patching (looking at you MATHS and QPAS). In fact, look up the MATHS Illustrated manual for a ton of patching examples. Also, many module manuals provide patching ideas; it may be worth menu-diving and watching some videos.

Third, just a quick observation: you have a lot of oscillators and filters and not too much else, so it's not really a surprise that your patching is feeling repetative. You have many impressive sound sources (more than you may realize, with self-patching), but not much to play with them and manipulate them. I suppose you have the computer at your disposal (VCV rack has some great free modules), but I'm not seeing the midi 0r other interfaces to connect? In any case, you should consider a few additions (everyone likes buying more gear, right?). Your patching options open up exponentially as you get more modules and patchpoints.

Consider for example, VCAs. You have the Quad VCA, which is a great module, but doesn't even give you enough channels for the voices you already have, and it certainly doesn't give you enough channels to play around with, such as modulating an LFO with another LFO to come up with more interesting cv. A Veils clone or Doepfer's quad mixer vca might be of more value than you realize.

I also always advocate for more modulation options, like Ochd or Batumi, so you can have motion. Finally, you're missing the essential architecture, utilities. There's been a few good analogies floating around the comments about utilities, but in the end, the unsung utilities are what enable you to actually use the big-ticket modules like VCOs. You might want to consider a mutli-utility module, such as a Disting EX or uOrnament and Crime, which gives you a taste of a lot of types of utility modules so you can figure out what's useful (again, VCV rack gives you plenty for free if you're already using a computer, but you need to be able to interact with it). For example, until you play with a clock divider, how would you know you can use it as a sub-osc? Or a that comparator can be amazing for taking LFOs and making rhythms, or just how fun switches can be?

In my mind, it's the ability to access these architectural circuits that makes modular unique. Plenty of standalone synths give you deep rawring sounds and luscious pads, but how many of them can create modulation and movement over time that can be controlled by other parameters? I'd say watch some videos about the modules you already have (look up that MATHS manual!) and about different utilities, and you'll get a good sense of where to go next with your patching.

Edited: Just saw the link has already been posted. Ignore point 1.

EDITED Sep 4th 2023, 15:19

So, thinking about it a bit, I've come up with this. More experienced users please feel free to fix what's lacking/wrong!

First off, little known secret is that the 6U Rackbrute is actually 89 hp for some reason (at least, mine is). Blessed be extra hp.

I've tried to keep all of the modules you already had, except one, since I assume you already own them. I've removed Brains because it's big for what it does, and switched in a Klavis Twin Waves MKII which sounds awesome and is much smaller. All other modules are kept, but rearranged (my own preference and workflow reflected here, nothing particular about their arrangment).

Top row has Pams and the PPEXP-1 which gives you dedicated outs for regular clock, allowing you to do more interesting rhythms or voltages with the original outputs (including random, smooth random, quantized, logic, euclidean, etc...). Then your oscillators, followed by a gnarly dual/stereo filter, the Ikarie. I finish off with your envelope generator and FX.

Bottom row adds some random flavor - the highly compact Tagh to give you random voltages, the SHTH to help pick off voltages, LFOs, and a 2hp VCA, since modulating modulators is fun and you had the room to spare. Your sequncer and more LFOs follow, then the mult, 6 chainable attenuverters, and then the uO_C. I found that getting an uO_C was the primary stepping stone into generative. The shift register and quantizer are just a delight together. The other utilities presented will give you a taste of what else is out there and how to use them, so if/when you get a bigger system, you'll already have experience.

Then the Frap Tools 321 for more voltage/audio futzing, then your VCA, Mixer, and Outs. Eezy peezy.

It's not perfect, but it's a start towards generative so you can decide when you want to do with your system when you (inevitably) expand your system. Should be fun to play, at least.

Best of luck!

Hi iben,

I asked the same question 2 years ago, and got some great advice from some power users and a suggested setup that really helped direct my rack planning: https://www.modulargrid.net/forum/posts/index/10559.

One of the pieces of advice I got was simply, "nothing about this screams generative to me - how are you expecting to generate random sequences? and modify them over time?"

Part of doing generative music (to me, this is opinion, after all) is using the modules to set up the conditions, restraints, and rules that direct and filter generated randomness into something evolving and (controllably) unpredictable. Unfortunately, doing so often takes a lot of support modules, and with a Rackbrute, there isn't much space to get generative. So my thoughts are that you should be looking at:

1) Sources of randomness. Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like you have enough ability to create random voltage sequences. PAMs can do this well in several flavors (random and smooth random), but I find that those 8 outputs get used up fast for other clocking duties. I really enjoy my TipTop/Buchla Source of Uncertainty, but it is regrettably huge. Instruo just put out a new Tagh, which gives multiple types of random in 4 hp. @Sweelinck's suggestion of Turing Machine or Wogglebug are also great. However, maybe consider the uOrnament and Crime, which has different shift register/turing machine appletts, along with a couple of dozen other utility uses. And which brings us to Point 2.

2) Utilities to ontrol the randomness. Well, obviously someone was going to say utilities. But there are a few in particular that you might want to consider that really help me when doing generative.
* Comparators - These send out voltages when a certain threshold is met, or in the case of window comparators, when a voltage is within/without a certain range. For example, sending an LFO through and having gates come out when the LFO crosses a certain threshold. I love Joranalogue's Compare 2 for this, and the DivKid video on it goes into depth about how comparators work in general.
* Sample and hold - Gosh I love these. I'll often send a smooth random signal into one of these and sample at rhythmic intervals to develop my melodies. There are a ton of great ones, but I've really been enjoying After Later Audio's SHTH, which gives you both sample and hold and track and hold, and a few other goodies, in 2hp.
* Attenuators/attenuverters/inverters - My god, a random voltage generator really means random, and that often sounds like crap. So you'll want to attenuate the randomness, or the LFO, or the other cv, or frankly any signal because I just can't think of much that an attenuator/attenuverter/inverter can't help with. PAMS can do this, as well, but again with the limited outputs. A matric mixer like the Doepfer A-138m can be large, but quite useful. I like the Happy Nerding 3x MIA quite a lot, but getting to zero can be tricky on an attenuverter as compared to a pure attenuator. Frap Tools 321 gives you a lot of other functions, as well, but can attenuate and invert nicely. Additionally, you can also use VCAs as attenuators, if you have VCAs to spare...
* VCAS - Guess what, you don't have VCA's to spare. I find that I always want at least one more VCA than whatever number I currently have. A cascading VCA is great, but there are plenty of small VCAs out there to toss in where you have spare hp.
* Quantizer - Perhaps the Varigate can do this? I am not too familiar with it. However, if not, you'll want to be able to quantize your random voltages, because as stated earlier, randomness can sound like crap if not tamed. There are several good ones out there, but to be honest, I've not tried them other than the Dual Quantizer applet on uO_C hemispheres. But that works like a charm. I've heard people love Intellijel's Scales, which is relatively small.

3) A few honorable mentions:
* LFOs - something like Instruo/DivKid's OCHD gives a lot of organic motion in 8 related triangle LFOs.
* Mults - If you're going to be sending multiple copies of a 1v/oct signal, you will want to use Buffered or Active mults, instead of passive ones. The Frap Tools 333 is one such that provides a ton of secret uses. Doepfer's Swtched Multiple A-182-1 (passive, but amazing) is really cool, too.
* uOrnaments and Crime or Disting Super EX - A mutli-utility module that will give you access to a ton of functionality you don't otherwise have room for. Menu diving can be an issue, but they're worth the hp and scrolling in a small system.
* Mutes, routers, shifters, and switches - Don't forget that even with generative music, you'll want to play your instrument. I really enjoy fiddling with DivKid's Mutes, vpme.de's T43 Frequency shifter, and Instruo's tain and (1)F for these purposes.

Hope that helps, best of luck!

(Edited to add that I forgot PAMS can quantize signals as well, if needed, and for spelling, since I apparently need more coffee.)

EDITED Aug 15th 2023, 13:26

Looking to expand Mini Brute into the world of modular. How does the community think these modules will play (well, not well, redundant, missing something key, etc...) with the MB?
-- mashume

Which Minibrute do you mean, the 2/2s, or do you mean the Microbrute? The 2s is awesome in conjuction with modular, so many cool modulation and sequencing possibilities. The Microbrute's patchbay is much more limited, but would still expand quite well into a modular rack. Do you already have the linked rack, or are you still shopping around? If you haven't gotten it yet, you may want to consider going a little bigger (the Rackbrute 6u is a good starter size, though I might recommend a Tip Top Mantis - both are great). Don't get me wrong, you can 100% build an amazing instrument in the rack size you have, but you're going to have to be conservative with hp.

How much control do you want over the basslines? Will you mostly be sequencing basslines on the MB and then sending the audio to the rack for futzing, or are you mainly looking to use your rack to modulate cv that goes back and forth into the MB? Or do you want to use the rack to create the bassline melodies itself? I see you've added a good deal of random cv possibilities to the rack since posting, how are you planning to use those? Will you be clocking from the MB?

In general though, you need more architecture (meaning utilities) to get the most out of your modules. For example, you need VCAs; the ones provided on the MB2 are not enough for an expanded system. A chainable VCA like the Intellijel Quad VCA or Mutable Instruments Veils works well. The Veils is the first module I got to expand my Minibrute 2s when dipping my toes into modular, and it completely changed how I used the synth. Also, you are missing modulators like LFOs (ignoring MATHS which, of course, can do that too). A voltage controlled LFO like XAOC's Batumi would give you excellent controllable LFOs that can drastically change your sounds and cv. I see you've added attenuverters/offsets, and MATHS can do that quite handily, but you may want to consider more, so you can better control the modulations and randomness. Happy Nerding's 3xMIA is pretty good at that, and gives you mixing, helping to free up the VCAs and MATHS which can be used in other ways.

There are a number of other utility, modulating, or signal mangling modules that I could recommend, but it really all depends on your goals, particularly with a rack of that size. Hope this helps.

noted. can you recommend some of your favorites? i've been eyeing 4ms clock distro / multiplier / divider, addt'l Intellijel logic.

Sure thing. I've really gelled with Doepfer's A-182-1 Switch Multiple and A-151 Sequential Switch. They're pretty cheap as far as modules go, and add a lot of flexibiltiy in just a little hp. I recently got the 4ms QCD and I love it. It's just straightfoward and good at what it does, and is decently easy to adjust in real time. I'm thinking about getting the expander, too. For logic there are a bunch of options; I currently use a Tesseract VC Logics, which gives you two channels a several logic options.

You may want to consider tools like Joranalogue's Swtich 4 or Route 2. I've also been playing with their Morph 4, which on the surface gives you 4 vcas that you can morph/scan through, but it goes so much deeper, and might be an interesting way to mix and blend your signals. I'd also suggest some attenuators or attenuverters to help tame and control things.

There are other interesting modules that might interest you, like comparators to pick gates off of a changing voltage, or slew limiters to give you some glide. Also, I am a big fan of randomness and off-kilter rhythms, though it doesn't sound like that's your main interest. However, even if you want to keep things steady and regular, subtle touches of randomness can really add to the life of a patch. Match random voltages up with a S+H or T+H and suddenly you're in some really interesting territory. Pass it through a quantizer and suddenly you have a non-repeating melody. Using an attenuated smooth random signal to subtly and unpredictably modulate some parameter over time gives a lot of movement to your patch.

Luckily, Pams is already capable of doing both random voltages and smooth random voltages, and has the ability to attenuate, quantize, and do logic. It can also do euclidian patterns, so you can make funky off-kilter patterns. It's another reason to get more mults; you will quickly use up all 8 outs on Pams.

i plan on using ableton as master, possibly thru my sq-64 and into Pam's. i've heard ableton is a bad clock but i've seen it done. that being said, i intend to use standalone as well. not necessarily into bleeps and bloops outside of atmosphere / percussive elements.

If you were gonna play it standalone, then you might want to think about the ergonomics and actual playability of the intstrument. It's not gonna be enjoyable if you build it all and it turns out it's no fun to play. In addition to swtiches and attenuators, you could consider mutes to go along side your matrix mixer.

Good luck with the rack!

this is my first rack. i'm experienced with synths and recording, but am wondering if I should roll w the case that fits perfectly, or opt for a little extra space. my GAS is bad but i think i have my basics covrred with these modules.

what am i missing?
-- dreamboat

The general advice is to get a bigger case than you think you need. You never know when GAS will strike! Also, you may find that you want to swap out some modules and suddenly that case isn't such a perfect fit anymore.

That being said, yeah, looks like a good rack with basics covered. The only things I might recommend are more ways to control signal path and timing (e.g., sequential switch, switch multiple, router, logic, clock dividers, etc..) and maybe more mults/vcas. Otherwise though, it looks like a fun place to start.

How do you plan to play the instrument? Are you using external gear to control things, or is this a standalone?

I love it so much. He has some pretty amazing live abilities. But I was looking for a generative sequencer for this rack that only eurorack makes possible. But the more I advance in my reflections the more I tell myself that I will keep it :)

-- timtoum93

Definitely keep it if you mesh well with it. Besides, you'll end up getting more rack space eventually; it's inevitable. If you want to do generative music, however, you may want to consider a few other types of modules that can pair with your random voltage generator. Utilities like a comparator which can allow you to pick gates out of signals like random voltages or lfos (my favorite is the Compare 2, which has a bunch of hidden functionality). Sample and hold/track and hold (I know tagh has one on it, but maybe consider having a dedicated one) also allow you to collect cv from random voltages, enabling you to build changing sequences and melodies. Also, a quantizer so that the cv you sample actually sounds musical.

None of the above are necessities, of course. But they can go a long way to helping you realize a generative system.

Pam not enough for clock multipliers/dividers? For the moment I have a metropolix but it takes up a lot of space. I'm going to have a hard time parting with it. I haven't made my choice between Metropolix and Bloom yet. I think you're right about the extra LFOs and VCAs. Thank you so much :)

-- timtoum93

Since Pam's is capable of a lot of different things aside from clocking (e.g., euclidean patterns, logic, random voltages/smooth random, etc...), I prefer to use a dedicated divider/multiplier (along with a switched multiple for better routing) for the boring clocking signals and leave Pam's outputs open for more interesting tasks.

How is the Metropolix? I've never had the chance to use one but they look fun and pretty easy to perform with.

EDITED May 29th 2023, 14:55

I have an analog rytm for drums. I do techno and I try to produce with my modular bassline, atmospheres and melodies with many layers of modulation. THANKS :)
-- timtoum93

Hey, looks like a fun rack, but curious how you're planning to sequence triggers or melodies, are those being done off rack? Even if so, you might want to consider something like the 4ms QCD or another clock divider/multiplier for more rhythmic possibilities. I always love a good sample and hold or track and hold, as well.

You have ochd (which is my current favorite lfo) and other modules capable of doing lfos, but you may want to consider more dedicated lfos (particularly those that can be cv controlled) so you can get your layers of modulation. Batumi has a big footprint but is quite powerful, 4ms makes a pingable one, too.

Also, I think you'll want to have some more attenuators or vcas in there to help you control modulation. The Morph 4 is super cool and gives you 4 vcas, but it seems a shame to waste its potential that way. Maybe a good end of chain cascading vca like intellijel's quad vca would help.

Good luck and have fun!

EDITED May 29th 2023, 11:58

I use the Ensemble Oscillator mostly to get a instant evolving drone going and combine it with more sound elements.
I use the SWN mostly to start a complex sequence as a main leading sound theme >

Thanks for the in depth reply! Unfortunately, it looks like the only real answer is to get both, of course! But it seems like the EO might be a better team player in a smaller rack and more immediately impactful. That SWN seems like a dream, though. Maybe someday. Thanks again!

EDITED May 22nd 2023, 22:01

• 4ms Ensemble Oscillator
  and / or
• 4ms wavetable navigator

I love them for ambient - they are fantastic
For drones, chords, timbres all the chilling fun

-- MCGM

Not to hijack the thread, but curious if you had a favorite between the two? Both have peaked my interest, but I've not had the chance to try either.

And yes, I do have this many Maths...

Wow, that's impressive. Are you gonna be keeping Maths in your main racks while you do this, or are you covering the functionality in different ways? Just curious 'cuz I'm always interested in how people replace Maths.

I might do a writeup or a video or so of the results (me getting all tangled up in a mess of wires).

I think I speak for us all here when I say, yes, please do!

Agree with Jukeshoe. However, if you DO have that many Maths and go through with this, please, please film the results!

Ok, this was a neat challenge. But to be honest, I think my solution might need some work. I like where Sweelinck was headed (particularly with the Morphagene), as well. Maybe one of the real power users will come along and give some suggestions. But let me show you where my thinking is leading, and you can do with that as you will.

For starters, I kept almost all the modules you've already gotten, only switching out your passive mult for a buffered mult. A passive mult does not do as good a job as a buffered when multing signals; if you want to mult 1v/oct signals, you'll want a buffered mult so there is no drop in voltage. Also, I'd get a multi-cable rather than a passive mult, to save space. The other thing to consider is that the Rene, as badass as it is, takes up 32hp. That's pretty dear for a sequencer, even one as powerful as Rene. You have 104 hp to use (if the above case is accurate), don't waste nearly a third of it on a sequencer. Get something off rack like a BSP, or go for a bigger case so you don't have to sacrifice other modules for Rene.

Keeping in mind that you are interested in dark ambient with a hint of generative, I did the following (listed by function).

Top Row: Random voltages, VCOs (3 v/oct ins), multimode filter (2 inputs), mults, Maths (so many functions, but at most basic, a mixer/attenuverter/function generator), audio manipulation in the form of uClouds and uRings, function/envelopes/quad cascading VCA.
Bottom Row: Clocking, modulators, attenuverters, S/H and T/H, sequencer, precision adder, sequential switch, uO_C (so many functions, only two levels of menu diving), and end of chain VCAs, effects, and mixers.

My thought is that you could use the bottom row to supply motion, modulation, attenuation, triggers, gates, and sequences. These can be manipulated or quantized (which Rene can already do, but what if you use you S/H for a melody?) or so many other things using uO_C. After that you have another VCA and then end of chain processing. I give you for effects the Happy Nerding FX Aid XL, which sounds great, though you will want to have a printout of the different settings at hand. There's a new version out with a screen, but you don't have the hp for it at the moment.

The top row has sound sources, giving you 3 digital voices that come out of the VCOs ready to go. However, if you wanted to filter further, the Filter 8 gives you plenty to play with. And Joranalogue always throws extra functionality into their modules. Then Maths, which is so handy it needs its own post. Then sound processing in uClouds and uRings. I generally prefer the real article to clones, but it makes sense with MI's situation and your hp. Finally, function/envelope generation and VCAs to craft the shape of the sound.

My typical approach to building a rack is to try to think through the signal path as I plan. From beginning to end, where might I need to send voltages, or what parameters will I want to mangle? That way I can start thinking about the system as an instrument rather than a collection of modules.

Finally, there are utilities. These are hard to figure out without trying them, unless you're already blessed with electrical engineering experience. I mean, how are you supposed to know that sequential switches can be your best friend when building longer sequences, or that precision adders rock, or that comparators are game changers for generative music? The uO_C, particularly with Hemispheres loaded, gives you a chance to test them all out and decide what you actually need. In general (adapting something Sweelinck said in another thread), if you think of your system as a building, the oscillators, filters, and fancy modules are rooms, but you need the utilities to act as hallways and corridors (and sometimes fun-house mirrors) to get from room to room. I highly recommend looking up some videos about different utilities to get a better sense of what they do. Loopop, Mylarmelodies, and DivKid were sources I went to when I was figuring this out, and I found them invaluable.

Anyways, maybe one of the really experienced folks will tell you something different. But it looks like you're on a good path, you just need to think more about the architecture and connecting pieces of your system.

Good luck!

EDITED May 21st 2023, 13:27

HGsynth thanks for the reply. This already helps a lot. Worth of mentioning is that i'm using a beatstep pro as wel to clock everything and as a sequencer. I was thinking about Pamela's new workout, or a extra vca from intelijel. What kind of multi-fuction tool do i have to think of?

My pleasure. Putting together a system without having tried all the modules is tough, particularly if you're new to this. Glad to help.

Ok, BSP is a fine choice. I love both my Pam's (I have "New Workout," haven't tried the "Pro") and my Intellijel quad VCA; both massively changed how I used my system. Also, the Pam's brings us back to utilities, because you should consider what you want to do with the clock from Pam's. How will you mult the boring regular pulses from one output so you can make use of Pam's more interesting features in the others, like euclidean rhythms, logic, quantization, or smooth random? Do you want to be able to multiply or divide the clock to send different speeds of the signal around your system? Do you want to use the gates as envelopes?
Clock dividers or multipliers (e.g, 4ms QCD), buffered mults (e.g., Joranalogue Link2), VCAs (so many different ones), attenuators/attenuverters/inverters (e.g., Happy Nerding 3xMIA, Frap 321, etc.), and slew (e.g., Joranalogue Contour 1, Doepfer A-171, etc.) all seem to make more sense when you think about it that way.

Other utilities, like window comparators, logic, precision adders, S/H or T/H, gate-trigger converters, etc. all are harder to conceptualize until you need one while patching. For example, what if I wanted to pick gates off of two related LFOs whenever their voltages reach a certain range? Or I want to make a step sequence from a complex LFO or smooth random voltages? Or what if one of my modules is not reacting properly to a gate because it only like triggers or the voltage is not high enough? All situations I've come across, leading to getting the utilities above.

For a multi-tool, I think Ornament and Crime is a complete game-changer. It's menu-diving is only 2 steps deep, and it has so many tools on it (personally, I prefer the Hemispheres option). Play around with that for a while and you'll get to know what utilities you need. People also love the Disting EX and MK4, but I haven't tried those personally. The EX is on my to get list, though. I recommend watching some videos about the different utilities to figure them out. There are a lot of good ones: Divkid, loopop, mylarmelodies, red means recordings, etc... so many great folks in the community explaining how modules work and giving patching ideas. I always watch a ton of those before making a purchase.

Good luck!

Forgetting utilities, modulation sources, etc. is a very common mistake at the beginning. When we think about our dream house, we are mainly focused on the living room, the bedrooms, the kitchen, the bathroom... Corridors, doors, staircases and closets are less of a dream.

@Sweelinck, I love this analogy. Definitely using it in the future. Thanks!

EDITED May 17th 2023, 13:19

Two thoughts.

1) You have a lot of nice modules here, and I wouldn't necessarily drop anything that you already have. But I would say that you're missing the architecture necessary to actually use a lot of the modules: utilities. You should be thinking about how to actually get signals to the modules and how you'll morph the signals along the way. For example, you have Batumi for LFOs. Awesome choice, but how are you gonna tame the signal without wasting Maths? Maybe an attenuator (or better yet, attenuverter) or two would help. Or, of course, you could have more VCAs. A sample and hold or track and hold might be worth considering for turning those random voltages into step sequences. A quantizer would be cool, too. What if you want to route a signal to multiple locations? Buffered mults will allow that without any drop in voltage. I particularly like the Doepfer Switched Multiples and Sequential switch for these purposes. There are many utilities that will allow you to mangle, tame, move, or manipulate the signal; don't forget about them! Maybe check out a multi-function tool or VCV rack to get a sense of which utilities you'll need.

2) How are you connecting to the outside world? Are you working with a computer or DAW, or just the standalone modular synth?

Best of luck!

Hi all,

As a fun challenge, I wanted to see if I could build a semi-generative system in small rack. So, using a Rackbrute 6U and modules I already own, I present the results. I explain my thinking below. But what about you? What's the tightest/most complete instrument you could build in a Rackbrute using only modules you already own? Any style, but please explain your rack.

So, here's my thinking:
Row 1: power, clocking, routing/mults, uO_C, voices, envelopes, VCAs
Row 2: modulators, gates, s/h, routing, triggers, VCA, effects, and end of chain processing.

Pam's runs the show with the master clock, with some utilitarian architecture afterwards to get the signals around. My main modulators are Batumi and Ochd, but there are other LFOs and modulators around, as well. Random gates, triggers, and sequences can come from several sources: uO_C, Pam's, or a combo of utilities. These get quantized by uO_C, which then feeds Plaits and Rings. Zadar helps shape it all alongside Veils. Then, the signals make their way to the end of the chain with some effects and sound shaping along the way. Finally, to cheat, there is the ES-9, making the exercise kind of irrelevant, but fun nonetheless.

So, let's see your racks.

EDITED May 16th 2023, 19:53

Wow thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my post.

No problem!

part of me thinks I should start very small so that I can learn my modules and figure out what I need

Yes and no. Yes - start with a small number of modules that will work together to give you a chance to learn how they interact. No - don't use a small starter case. Really, you'll be kicking yourself in a year (or sooner) if you start with a tiny case.

One other option I forgot to mention is that you'll get a lot of bang for your buck with a multi-utility or multi-function tool like Maths (worth the hp for all the versatility it brings), uOrnament and Crime, or Disting EX. The last two are a little menu-divey, but either will give you access to a large number of utilities and will allow you to figure out which ones you actually use.

Good luck!

Hey, good luck with the journey. It's fun, and the rabbit hole of searching for interesting modules is addictive.

Out of curiosity, how are you planning to use modular in your music? If you just want to build a sequence and have drums, it's way cheaper to go the route of drum machines and sequencers. Sound mangling is cool, but again, probably cheaper off rack. Of course they can't do what modular does, but you could buy a lot of instruments for the price of a full rack that can do many of the same functions as modular.

That out of the way, two things jump out at me about your racks:

1) VCOs and VCFs combine for 56 hp of space for just two independent voices. That's a whole lot of real estate for a case that's only 104hp. As cool as those oscillators are, maybe find smaller versions, or dual oscillators or filters? If you like Instruo, their Ts-L has a voltage controlled wavefolder and is only 6hp. Klavis Twin Waves Mk II is huge sounding in 8 hp, and itself is a dual VCO. If you want to keep it analogue, Make Noise has STO. Shakmat Modular's Dual Dagger is a dual VCF in 6 hp. Right there you have 2 to 3 independent voices in 16-18 hp. That gives you a lot of space back to work with. Particularly, since you'll want to use it for....

2) Utilities. You need more utilities, in particular for clocking and triggering. Yes, you have a monster sequencer, but adding something like a Pam's would give you a lot more options and flexibility. Things like clock divider or multipliers will give you access to a lot more rhythmic options. Logic modules allow for more interesting combinations and trigger sequencers. I see you're planning on getting the Compare 2, which has some logic built in. Great module. Personally, I LOVE sample/track and hold, and they are super cool to use as modulators, and can be used to build melodies from the LFOs you have (which, you could also get more of).

Utilities are useful because they are just so damn versatile. For example, how about more attenuators or attenuverters to subtly affect signals, or even invert them? Or, another example of the utility of utilities, you could build a step sequencer with just a clock, a sequential switch and a matrix mixer, and suddenly with three utility modules you have a sequence. Add something that can quantize, and suddenly you have a melody you can control with a mixer, all from utilities and a clock. Routing is important too. Spreading that signal around with Link 2 is great (personally I love Joranalogue), but how about adding Doepfer's Switch Multiple that gives you mults and the ability to route signals. Joranalogue just announced a new routing module that looks sick, so maybe think about that, too.

Anyways, I'm sure someone with more experience can give you more focused advice specific to hip hop, but my general thoughts are stay away from big sound making modules, and stick close to the smaller, cheaper, utilities.

Good luck!

EDITED May 12th 2023, 19:44