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Hi Sacguy71,

I even didn't know Befaco had a joystick module, so far I was always thinking of Intellijel versus joystick module hence Planar II. Nice demo video, thanks for making the Befaco joystick known :-)

Ha, ha, you got some really funny & weird sounds in that demo! :-)

Recently I heard that Doepfer is coming up with a joystick module too (A-174-4), I might go for that one but let's see first.

Have fun with the joystick module and kind regards, Garfield.

Ok Lugia. I wish I could get my head around what you’re saying, I’m really trying, but with little success! Do you mean an ES3? Can you give me any examples?
-- clivevass

OK...on the back of the Fireface, you'll see some lightpipe ports (probably with little rubber covers to keep crap out of the optical path), probably labelled ADAT. That's where you'd connect any OTHER interface that ALSO has the same ports. So, once you've got the Fireface AND the inexpensive, used, and (for audio) "obsolete" DC-coupled interface you snagged on Reverb or eBay, you'd hook 'em up with a pair of lightpipe cables. There might be a sync lockup issue, but checking the Fireface's docs should help with that. Once the interfaces are happy and talking to each other (you should see the new I/O ports in the Fireface's control/routing app...when you do, everything's cool), you can assign the new ADAT ports to CV Tools' use.

Nope, no ES-3. Just do a little scrounging. and you can beat the cost on that thing. FYI, this IS how you'd hook the ES-3 up as well...but we're going "cheap-n-dirty" here, getting much the same result for about 1/3rd the price.

Hi Sacguy71,

I fully agree here with Farkas. One can't say, if you have (just an example here) more than 10 oscillators but only 4 VCAs then you don't have enough VCAs... it's not that straight forward. It depends completely on the patch you are currently busy with and if you feel that you are missing a few VCAs and that kind of feeling/experience repeats with other new patches then indeed it's time to get a few more VCAs :-)

But if you insist on checking on the oscillators per VCA rate... I don't feel it's "fair" (for calculation purposes) to count percussion/drum modules as an oscillator as well. So if you stick to pure oscillators versus VCAs only...

Ha, ha, very coincidentally I am exactly to a 1:1 rate, so my number of oscillators is, at my current setup, exactly (not even a difference of one) the same as my number of VCAs; interesting/funny exercise. The way I counted is for VCAs: I only count pure VCAs, no overdrives, no mixers that have VCA functionality in them, though a dual VCA I count for 2, a quad for 4, etcetera. The same for the VCOs/DCOs, no matter if they have multiple outputs, I just count them as one unless it's a dual VCO then I counted it for 2, etcetera. As mentioned as well, I didn't count other modules like drums/percussion and sample modules as being an oscillator, otherwise I would have a bit more than VCAs indeed.

Though, again I don't think you should approach it this way.

For my own setup I sometimes still feel I have too less VCAs; recently I bought a few extra VCAs because before that I definitely had too less VCAs. Now slowly I feel it's time to get a few more oscillators ;-) You should follow your guts when you are patching! If you are during patching in the urge of some more VCAs and you ran out of them... well, that seems a clear signal to me that you need more VCAs, and vice versa of course if you feel you have a lack of oscillators.

Good luck with the module planning and kind regards, Garfield.

Partly. Remember, if you have the attack all the way down, that actually equals the SAME amplitude change but at an extremely fast rate. Also, if the envelopes seem TOO punchy (sounds like that's the problem), adjust the CV input level on the VCA downward...try to NOT run VCAs wide-open, as a rule.

What's actually going on is that, without turning the decay up, you've got an envelope outputted that's actually too rapid for the VCA's latency. But when you increase the decay TIME (and not amplitude!), you actually are outputting the full amplitude swing on attack slowly enough to overcome the VCA latency. It SEEMS like the problem is the EG...but it's actually the CV input level to the VCA. Reducing the VCA's CV input level will get that under control.

FYI, the difference between linear and exponential actually has to do with whether or not you're using the VCA for CV/mod use, or for audio. Linear VCAs change level in a 1:1 proportion to the CV level. But exponential VCAs change level in an asymptotic curve that mirrors our perception of absolute loudness...which also works in an exponential manner, just like the decibel scale which measures loudness according to the same physics circumstances as how we perceive it. As a result, you use exponential VCA curves pretty much for AUDIO ONLY...as the exponential curve distorts the 1:1 scaling that VCAs...and their normal "client" signals...require for linear voltage changes.

Are you running out of VCAs? If so, it’s time to add more.
Everyone patches differently. And everyone has different modules, some with integrated VCAs, so it’s really just a matter of “if you find yourself reaching for something that isn’t there, buy that next.”

Using an external drum machine is good idea as way less expensive than modular drums. I like the Elektron Rytm and Jomox Alphabase drum machines.
-- sacguy71

Yep, that's what I have come to realize. I might consider drum module options for a future build, but it will be much further down the line. I just need to get started down the modular path, and develop a strong workflow. After I completely fill up the first case with actual purchases, I plan to focus on a dedicated sequencer case with Doepfer A-155 and A-154 modules. The said combo looks extremely interesting for Techno-based music.

EDITED Dec 31st 2020, 01:51

Hi Homeslice1479,

You most probably checked that already but just to make sure all options have been checked... did you check with the Panel Selector On option (right upper corner) and then at the left bottom (of the pedal itself in your pedal board overview) clicking on those arrows you can go through the different front panels, you also can't find it there?

If you indeed can't find it there then indeed it might be a bug. Did you then tried to reload the picture?

Kind regards and good luck with the troubleshooting, Garfield Modular.

Edit: Correction/update.

EDITED Dec 31st 2020, 01:50

Using an external drum machine is good idea as way less expensive than modular drums. I like the Elektron Rytm and Jomox Alphabase drum machines.

https://www.musicradar.com/news/the-best-eurorack-modules-in-the-world

After additional iterations, I took the initial advice of using an external drum machine. Therefore, I removed the Blck_Noir and Erica Synth Drum Sampler. I will own Blck_Noir day, but it will unfortunately not included in my first modular system build. I also kept the TipTop effects in the case to prevent or limit the use of an external effect units and pedals. Below are the new modifications:

I plan to run the WMD Performance Mixer's main output to the stereo external inputs of either the Native Instruments Maschine+, Pioneer DJ SP-16, Roland MC-707, or Roland TR-8S. Since I already own all four, at least one of them can provide the drums and, if needed, additional sounds.

The overall setup should be rather compact unlike my present studio setup with multiple individual synths.

Thanks for the help!

EDITED Dec 31st 2020, 00:46

I have been trying to figure out the ideal ratio of VCAs to other modules in a larger setup. Right now in my 14u MDLR case, I have 8 VCAs and two large voice modules (Trident triple oscillator, Hertz Donut complex VCO) and a Plaits plus 4 WMD percussion modules. I also have a six channel mixer (Befaco Hexmix) and an octal attenuator with Erogeneous Tones Levit8. Do I have enough VCAs?

Change over:

Voices:
SSF ZPO, Klavis Twin Waves mk2, Joranalogue Filter8 (as voice), Thomas Henry VCO.

Drum voices:
WMD Crater, 2HP Kick, Patching Panda Hatz, Erica Pico Drum2, Noise Engineering BIA, TipTop One.

Filters: Mutable Instruments Blades, Doepfer Wasp, Erica Black LPG, Erica Pico VCF3, Behringer HPF, Mutable Instruments Ripples, Corsynth HPF, NorthCoast MSK009.

Wavefolders/shapers: Klavis Flexshaper, Joranalogue Fold6.

VCA: Doepfer A-130-8, Malekko Quad VCA, Joranalogue Mix3.

Env/LFO: Intellijel Quadrax, XAOC Batumi, Erica Black LPG, XOR Nerdseq 16CV expander.

Control: XOR Nerdseq, Malekko Voltage Block, Polyend Preset, 2x WMD Sequential Switch Matrix, 2x Acid Rain Navigator.

Random: FrapTools Sapel

Tuning/Adder: Klavis CalTrans, Doepfer Precision

Logic: Klavis Logica

Effects: Intellijel MultiFX 1U, Noise Engineering Desmodus Versio, Allright Devices Chronoblob2, Corsynth Lofi-machine, 2HP Verb, Future Sound System GristLeizer TG4, Erica Pico DSP

Input: Joranalogue RX2

Mix, mult & output: AcidRain Switchblade, 5x Intellijel Quadratt, Clank sum, Joranalogue mix3, 2x FrapTools 321, FrapTools 333, 3x Intellijel BuffMult 1U, Malleko Buff Mult, Doepfer Switch Mult.

EDITED Feb 20th 2021, 11:26

Let me start by saying that I’m really enjoying this conversation, it’s challenging my way of seeing my build and what’s possible with what I have. This is the exact reason I started this thread, and boy did I get what I asked for ! My brain hurts, but it’s a good hurt :-)

@ both
Garfield, you mention the second big rack, and Lugia talks about a 4ms pod. I also still have my 7U from Intellijel which I started on, it’s the case I use during short holidays to focus on some aspects of my modules. As much as possible, I would like to stay within the bounds of 14U for now. First of all, I do intend to move and I might get a bigger space and therefore a bigger desk, but that’s far from guaranteed and my desk is really cramped. I’m not dismissing the idea entirely but it would at least need to wait until March when I’m in the new house and I know what I can work with. There’s also the fact that confining myself to 14U is a good way to not go completely broke in the next months, if you know what I mean ;)

@GarfieldModular: To CV is a verb I use on a regular basis, definitely a thing lol.

The case you make for different kinds of VCA’s is pretty compelling. I have a switch for a +6db boost on each channel of the Intellijel Quad VCA which has been enough for me so far, but it's limited in use and it’s true that sometimes an extra « oomph » could come in handy, yet I still can’t bring myself to consider such a change for now. As Lugia said, I need to make a few theory builds, look at his take on it, and think for a long while. With this discussions, I’m starting to see patching my system in a new light so who knows, in a few days I might just change my tune regarding a « big » change in VCAs for the rack. I’ll definitely check out the demos of Punch !

Thanks for sharing your demo of the Erica Dual VCF, you got some really crazy sounds out of it :-) The more I look at that module, the more I want it. It wasn’t on my radar anymore after we talked about it almost a year ago I think, but now I remember why I wanted it in the first place, I really like the features and I/O it offers, very inviting to experimentation. What I’m after is filters that will go crazy in a « musical » way (to me, of course) when messed with, like the Belgrad for example. Playing with the span of the peaks while also bordering self-oscillation and a generous touch of cross-mod (thank you, Tito switch), I get such beautiful noises, it’s poetry to my ears. I have the same high hopes for the Erica filter… If I’m honest, I’m already very convinced, but I have a principle to at least sit for a while on buying decisions of that importance, for money as well as for build consistency reasons.

@Lugia:

I’m sorry you also lost your answer and more importantly, thank you for taking the time to write another one, it must have taken you a while so thank you for that !

Logic & clock: I’m definitely convinced the Logic 202 is going to find its way in the build, now I’m even thinking 202 first and Kinks second. Because yes, I think that I should be able to manage a Kinks in there too and I feel like it would come in very handy as well, I’ve been eyeing it for a while already. Would it be too much with the 202 already in there ? For the clock, I’m still leaning on me being able to get the effects you describe (cool ideas indeed, all going in my little « to try » modular notes) with a Time Apprentice in the 1U section and sometimes an output or two from PNW. Definitely going to stare at this for a while as you very well put it, that remark will remain valid for the rest of this post :)

EG-like modules: I’m now starting to see what you describe, a big modulation section working as a CV orchestra of sorts, and yeah, it has my grey cells working triple shifts, but it’s beautiful. I have already approached patches of that nature thanks to having Maths and the crazy Zadar now in the build, but I never saw things in the light of a wider approach. I’m very sold on the Quadrax and its expander, a little less on the QPLFO, although I do understand your point and of course fully agree that using the O&C for LFO’s is somewhat sad. I removed the double ADSR for now to have more room, I’m thinking Stages can provide one (at the cost of 4 channels, but OK) and I could also install Hemisphere on the O&c and use a side to produce ADSRs. Also, I don’t find myself using those so much in the way I patch so far, actually that came as a surprise to me when I went from classic synths to modular. Less ideal, though, so if I can find a way for it to come back in the rack, why not.

Varigate8+: aargh, you make such good points and the more I think about it, the more I see it’d be a very very good idea, so much power. Must resist … the dark side…. My wallet just rose an eyebrow in disapproval, but he’s seen worse.
I already get a glimpse of the power of ready-to-drop sequences with the little memory on the VB, and it’s very nice indeed, I use it a lot. Having a hundred of those would be almost too much. I also need to think about wether or not it introduces too much complexity in the system, it’s not that I don’t like menus but I want to keep a relatively small number of menu/complex button combo based modules in the rack, in order to keep the flow going when I patch. Manual reading, demo watching and more pondering will happen before I actually buy anything anyway, but I have a sort of plan presented below and it’s in there. Feels a bit like a waste to sell a large gate sequencer (my Robaux SWT16+) just to get another, but I did get the Robaux before getting my VB, and now VG makes a lot more sense… Oh well, you live, you learn.

Bitbox: keeping it for now, but we’ll see in the long run, it would free up some nice cash and generous HP space, and I can do sampling easily in the MPC too. How easy and practical the workflow really is, I don’t know yet, still have to test the waters a bit but so far so good, which is why I haven’t touched my Bitbox lately. When it's all running together though, I'd have to see how practical it is to add sampling on the fly in my MPC workflow instead of the ease of having the Bitbox always there...

Voices: Wow, I just got schooled :-) Using the filters as voices is clearly something I don’t do often enough. I mean, I know of it, and I’ve done it a few times (even with the Viol Ruina which doesn’t really track 1/oct haha), but how ready am I to commit to that and rock those as VCO’s on a sort of permanent basis, man, we’ll see. But all these ideas you shared, pure gold. Believe it or not, I never patched a voice comprised of the PH and C-sL together, not once, shame on me. I guess my excuse is that they’re so complex in themselves, there’s so much to explore, that exploring them as a voice with another VCO is something that completely eluded me, maybe I was already having too much fun as is. I also can’t believe that I can only remember one unique time when I played with Belgrad as a voice, despite loving it so much (what a fun time that was). The build proposed below is still organized like I did it before but essentially it retains the same functionality if I’m not missing anything, and I’m thinking about copying it to another rack on MG and playing with module placement to try different approaches, or maybe copy your reworked build and start from there.

Stereo: yes, yes, and more yes, in fact that’s also an important reason why I’d like to get the Erica Dual VCF in there. It would also be my second Lester of sorts, I have this idea that it’s better to try different flavors when it comes to modules so closely tied to sound timbre, more variety at my disposal and all that, could be a gross misconception on my part, I really don't know but it's worked for me so far. Otherwise I would already own 3 or 4 Belgrad filters, and using them as voices wouldn’t be so rare anymore :-) That Takaab is a no brainer though, almost feels like I could use a couple (second eyebrow raise by my wallet).

Modulation: this is the section that I have the most ease approaching for some reason. It all makes sense, it’s like a word you’re looking for and someone just says it out loud for you, now sparse ideas that I could never link together in my head are starting to make sense. I guess it’s like with Maths, I’ll start getting new ideas by patching and experimenting, that is what makes it so hard for me to chose how to evolve without having tried that new build.

Tetrapad: aargh-bis, excellent arguments again. I’ve explained the situation above about extra cases but yeah, I totally see the power of casing that in a 4ms pod or some other small case. For now, it’s still in the 14U plans, but I’m not buying all the update at once anyway so I’ll have a lot of time and some practice with new modules to decide how things will go. My wallet just tore his eyebrows off in anger, I'll go patch to calm him down.

New version of the build I have as a result of your kind help, the first wave of pondering, thinking and other slight headaches (the extra bottom row is modules that I would sell as a result of the reshuffling - I may decide to keep the Mixups anyway, they come in real handy when I make smaller systems in the 7U travel case) :

DHL is coming tomorrow to pick up the Intellijel Quad VCA going in repairs (kuddos for an incredibly efficient and nice support team @ Intellijel) so I’ll be without proper VCAs (quite a few hidden in the system, not as flexible though), and even before that I didn’t have enough, far from it. Therefore I’m going to place an order soon for the double VCA 1U and I’d like to add another, probably the new Veils although Garfield did make me want to investigate more on that. Depending on finances (the house move might hurt a bit, I might need some extra furniture and all that), I’ll order soon after the Quadrax + expander and then the Tetrapad+Tête, in that order of priority. I have a local deal on the Erica VCF so I’ll check that out, and I’ll also order the Shakmat clock divider if DIY shops do deliver, I want to get on that soldering iron again, so much fun. Speaking of uncertain deliveries, does anyone know if EMW has retailers in the EU ? MG lists only Thomann but they don’t seem to have the Logic 202 on offer. If no one here knows, I’ll write them an email to ask if they can get it, we’ll see, EMW says on their website that due to COVID, their sales are temporarily paused so that might not be for the very near future :-(

Well, that’s it for me, I’ll go back to patching my current system and try some of the experiments Lugia suggested, this will help me think and decide what I buy first in a week or so.
Thank you as always for all the help and the time you spend on this, on top of helping countless others.

A little early, I’m wishing you all the best for 2021 and I send you all good vibes to inspire you while you make music !

Take care,
D.

My last patch for this year. Details in the video description.

Wish everyone a very happy and very modular 2021 :)

I'll check those out, thanks you two.

Press record on Ableton, then press play on the modular, and that’s it!
-- clivevass

So when you "press play on the modular" which module are you actually pressing play on? In my set up that button is on Pamela's New Workout, which also has Clock and Run inputs which can be used to control it externally. If I wanted to control it from my computer, lacking DC-coupled outputs which as Lugia suggested is surely The Right Thing, I would just send a click track to that clock input. It would probably need some fiddling to work but people used to use the 808 rimshot to sync old analogue gear, and I can't imagine that new gear is worse!

I never do this -- Pam is always the master clock for me. You could also try it this way. Make Ableton follow the master clock from the modular, assuming your modular brain can send clock (over MIDI perhaps?).

Thanks @Exposure! I figure if you don't get crazy at some point, why bother making music at all? Although it usually takes me a while to get there.

The DFAM is a great machine. It's the whole reason I got into this modular synthesis business in the first place. I got the DFAM and realised I could really enhance it with just a few modules... and now I have a crippling Eurorack habit.

Yes, I was going to recommend Orbital 2 as well. I think Orbital's "Chime" is among my all time favorite electronic tracks. It's so simple, but has such a great vibe.

Wow! it gets wild towards the end, well done!

I don't know much about the Werkstatt, but the DFAM is an interesting machine for sure.

By the way, I love that top angle from the camera, we get to see the action :)

It sounds great @troux, well done! I'm also getting that kind of Orbital vibes here.

If you haven't listened to the Orbital's In Sides album I can't recommend it enough, it's a fantastic album. Also if you're in an Acid mood Orbital 2 has some pretty cool tracks.

Good trade with @Octafish - a total pleasure :)

I'm not familiar with ADAT so I can't speak to that, I just don't think the ES-3 takes input from the modular (but you should check and make sure I'm not misreading things).

My modular setup is quite simple: I use intellijel Mixup as my mix out, into my fireface ufx channel 1&2. Press record on Ableton, then press play on the modular, and that’s it! I would like to record every sound from my modular onto a separate channel simultaneously in Ableton so I can apply eq etc...and be able to hit record in Ableton and eurorack starts and is synced to the tempo. I think the ES9 will do this, but would that be overkill if I have ADAT on my audio interface? Am I just missing one thing or several bits of hardware. Thanks for the replies :)

EDITED Dec 30th 2020, 17:17

@clivevass I'm not actually sure the ES-3 solves your problem for you as * I believe * it's output only, but an ES-9 should do the trick and it's what I use for this.

Thanks @farkas, I haven't listened to them enough actually, any recommendations?

That clog? That is some sad trolling.
There's this thread on Muffwiggler; https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=167462

EDITED Dec 30th 2020, 16:07

Sounds great @troux. I love the transition around the 6:45 mark. Kind of gives me Orbital vibes.

Without knowing more about your modular setup it's hard to give useful suggestions of how to sync it to Ableton. How do you normally control it?

If you just need a clock output from the DAW, trying making an audio click track in Ableton and sending that to the modular. It might work!

Hi,

You can have a look to Beast Tek Dirty Glitch VCO. There is a new version assembled or DIY on Synthcube.

And this one from Paratek:
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/paratek-%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9-%D1%88%D1%83%D0%BC-black-diy
It's a dual Jupiter storm with improvement
It's an assembled module.

Dear Lugia.
Had a spin last night with my current setup and I understand what you mean. The Modulations I am able to create so far are in the ballpark you describe. I used 2 of the fourmulators LFO's to slowly change the filter cutoff or resonance and had this described "Slow ever changing" effect.
But I can see your example is much more sophisticated.

I guess I just have to get deeper into my setup and see where it's boundaries are. But I am certain that VCO wise I am equipped.
VCA wise for the moment I think I am good but again, saving rack space with a quad VCA as mentioned will help.

Regarding Envelopes. The Dual Intellijel somewhat behaves weird to my ears. In slow mode, if I have all stages turned down and just up the Decay I can only move a fraction of the sliders path and the VCA is already reacting to it. Will have another go tonight but could this be the effect of Linear vs Exponential VCA curve?

Ok Lugia. I wish I could get my head around what you’re saying, I’m really trying, but with little success! Do you mean an ES3? Can you give me any examples?
The-erc: I think I get what you’re saying, but I also want to sync in time with my DAW. In other words, click record on Ableton and eurorack starts playing?
Thanks guys. To a newbie, and not technically savvy, it’s so hard to get your head around all this so that you’re not wasting money on something you potentially already have.

I've been practicing live acid/house/etc lately with my dance rig, and getting some fun results. Was playing around this evening and thought "Where's my disting, this is too good not to record" so here we are. I liked this bassline so much I stuck to it for the whole time, that'll be a focus of future tunes, but I think it works here and overall I'm happy with the amount of variation and how everything flows. Anyway, give it a listen and let me know what you think.

https://stevehand.bandcamp.com/track/2020-acid-take-1-extended

I had intended to put together an ambient piece for the EOY 2020 comp but since most everyone else sent over dance pieces (and long ones too lol) I think this'll be my contribution.

I just got the Schlappi Engineering Angle Grinder and 100 Grit which can make some crazy types of drones for days especially when you feed different types of CV and sequence them. In fact, just using the 100 Grit came up with weird drones tonite of all types. As others mention, Noise Engineering makes great modules for this like Cursus Iteritas which I feed into Mimeophon for drones on days.

EDITED Dec 30th 2020, 05:34

I wonder if there is a lag, modules respond to the second sample I think, I doubt it that gates are faster.
But that doesn't matter because of latency anyway, I sync my gear by ear so that is a non-issue for me.
I own my Emu 1616m interface for over ten years, I'm not going to change that just because it has AC coupled ports of course.

I am able to run a midiclock (DC) from my AS Fusebox but I never use it because I like my way better, far more versatile.

EDITED Dec 30th 2020, 18:02

Thanks Garfield!

The Werkstatt is very fun, surprisingly many different sounds are possible, and they are all good. It would be nice if it was bit more polished as product (e.g. I read that the VFO and VCF outputs are not at the correct levels for Eurorack although I haven't tested this myself.)

As for the DFAM, well the kids are just going to have to learn to play nicely together!

Hi Lugia,

Yes, it's not ideal -- I have one module from 2hp and I'd prefer not to get any more because it's just too uncomfortable to use. I expect I will end up buying Stages because it ticks quite a lot of boxes for me, but I was hoping to learn if anyone had produced any clever solutions to my problem. Seems like the answer so far is "not exactly" although the Hikari Triple AD was a pretty cool discovery!

Incidentally the module (which I already have) that comes closest to what I want is Pique, 4hp version of Mutable Peaks. The cables are all together at the bottom out of the way, and the knobs are big enough, and you rarely have to press the tiny buttons. When I bought it, I thought it would do many jobs for me, but it's basically always used as two AR envelopes...

As for Blip/Radar : Woah.

Unfortunately the ergonomics of the rack are not the only ones in play : there is also the ergonomics of the rather small room I practice, record, and nowadays also work in. Maybe once I get my big house in the country, and I can dedicate an entire wall to modular like Hans Zimmer I can start thinking about 36hp modules -- but probably not before!

EDITED Dec 30th 2020, 04:22

Got my first modular joystick controller today a Befaco joystick and so fun!

I did try an Intellijel Planar 2 at a friend's place this weekend and like that a lot since you can record and playback gestures but it is sold out so will wait until another time next year.

I'm also going to caution you on trying to get too much jammed into too small a space. Having a pile of two-stages in a smallish module IS DOABLE...but the ergonomics of dealing with the tight patching and controls will eventually wear on you.

Also, there's some larger multi-EG modules that REALLY blow the doors off. The Erogenous Tones Blip/Radar combo is pretty huge...36 hp, in fact. But you get eight EGs, complete chaining capability, plus the Blip allows some wilder functions...for example, envelope sequencing and a truckload of other complex functions that you'd NEVER get in a smaller module. Not in a million, billion years. Nope.

The proper solution isn't ALWAYS the small one.

You're barking up the wrong tree here. The solution isn't in the modular...it'll be via the Fireface. Since that thing can do piles of channels simultaneously, what you REALLY need here is a DC-coupled expander of some cheap sort. Connect it to the ADAT Lightpipe connection (you don't need high sample rates for CV/gate/trig work), and that's that! Just make sure that you get proper DC-coupled hardware for that, and you're golden. With that PLUS the Fireface, you'll have ample audio I/O on that device itself, and all of your control signaling will be split from the audio I/O, which makes things make more sense.

EDITED Dec 30th 2020, 03:36

Hey Garfield,
Unfortunately the Doepfer - A-141-4 is the opposite of what I need, which is lots of independent AR (or even just R) envelopes. On the other hand that Triple AD module is very interesting. I will keep my eyes open for it.

Y'know...I don't use any fancy VCOs, and I've been doing drone-type work since the mid-1980s.

The REAL key to making drone works isn't in the oscillators. It's in the everything else. You can take ONE single VCO and, by splitting the outputs from it off to different VCF/VCA chains, then using slow modulation to make that arrangement "cook", you'll arrive at much the same result. Then once you get your synth patch feed, try jamming it through a few different, paralleled outboard processors and mixing those alongside the "dry" synth signal.

Or, don't use VCOs AT ALL...instead, grab a shortwave radio, find something sonically interesting, then process the hell out of that. Or you could go to Alvin Lucier-style extremes and rig up a copy of his "Long Thin Wire" device. Or use a sampler and make small loops...if you edit the loop points "badly", you'll actually have something of a subliminal rhythmic pattern going on...which gets even more interesting if none of the loops are timed so that they have coincident points of repetition.

Everyone thinks that the way to do stuff like this can ONLY be via modular synths. It's not. Expand your electronic horizons a bit.

That's not how it's supposed to work, you know. By using AC-coupled sources, you're actually going to have trig/gate signals (of a sort) that aren't exactly in time with everything else. There'll always be a little lag. And as you've noticed, not every module will respond to this method.

Why NOT get a DC-coupled interface? You don't have to get something like an ES-8...you can get on eBay or Reverb and rustle up a secondhand MOTU 828 (I use a mkii FW version for synth control, linked via Firewire 400 to my DAW machine) for, at worst, about $150. Plays nicely with CV Tools in Ableton. Plus, it gives me eight return lines, which is great if I want to use a hardware synth to generate modulation signals for something in software. And I should note, you CANNOT do that without a DC-coupled interface!

Hey, don't sweat it...NOBODY gets first builds right. Or the second. Or ninth. And so on. My suggestions would be to...

1) Study what's on the site. Not just the modules, but also look at builds done by experienced synthesists.

2) If you haven't got a copy of VCV Rack, get one. It's free, for one thing...and although it's a bit of a processing hog, it gives you a much clearer idea of what you need to build because it is, after all, a Eurorack simulator. It even has a number of "ports" of various Eurorack hardware modules.

3) Build. Tear down. Build. Tear down. Build. And so on. Think of this as pretty much the modular synth builders' version of using a practice room to work out a musical piece...only, the piece is quite physical as opposed to the usual dotz-n-linez. But like time spent in a practice room, you're honing something into a state where its perfect FOR YOU.

Takes time. Hell, I've been working with electronics in music since the late 1970s, and I'm STILL running into totally new ideas on here.

Had a reply, MG ate it. Grr...

Logic 202 + Fractio: These are key to a lot of sequencing and timing trickery. For example, let's say you want something to appear in the mix every once in a while. Just feed the clock and the appropriate clock division to an AND gate, then you'll get a gate outputted from that that ONLY appears when both clocking signals are present. Another great use for the division is to slow down the sequencer it's next to so that you can sequence transpositions...or you can multiply the clock for TaDream-style ratcheting. That whole area is designed so that ALL of the sequencers...even external ones...can have their timing messed with really hard by everything from Boolean logic to random signals, and there's ample capacity for "abuse potential".

The Qx expander for the Quadrax is what's necessary to "chain" the Quadrax's EGs, with the potential of generating other complex modulation curves in a similar manner to the Maths. But you'll also notice that the Maths has capabilities to mess with the Quadrax via the Qx, and so on. Again, look at the modulation section as something which, if desired, can work as one HUGE mod generator with all sorts of possible outputs. And you can then avoid using the o&C for just LFOs by making use of the QPLFO and use some of the more twisty things the o&C is capable of...the unique stuff!

Varigate 8+: there's another purpose there, and that's its sequence memory. You can set up 99 different memories in the Varigate for it AND the Voltage Block. And having preset, ready-to-drop sequences that you can switch on the fly RULES. Plus, don't forget the timing section and how you can screw with these via that as well.

Bitbox: Keep it. You can use it to loop audio on the fly, play stored samples, and a bunch of other things. It's "stereo voice 5". Which brings up the voicing...

There are actually THREE voice sections on the top row. The first, optimized for pads, washes, atmospherics and the like in stereo consists of the Cs-L and Piston Honda, which sum in stereo via the Mixup. Then the second, intended for leads and the like, consists of the Belgrad and Sisters with the Veils being used for...well, a lot of trickery. For example, you could split the output of each of those VCOs to two VCAs...then take a couple of LFO signals to control them AFTER you've also split them and inverted one of each LFO split, with the result being stereo autopanning! Then, it's also possible to sum this AND the first "voice" via the Befaco for the Lester's inputs...or you can break out any of that and send it to the filters by the percussive setup. Then the THIRD voice is the Loqualis itself, which allows you to concentrate on specific results, such as bass. Also, there's a stereo VCA under it that can be used for stereo modulation of the Loqualis. But each subsection of the top row can ALSO be fed to the respective Performance Mixer strips, along with the stereo percussives. Hence the second Lester...it can either be used to process one of the above subsections along with the other one, or you can use it for stereo filtering for the percussives. And the Wasp and NE VCF are down there for alternate filtering...either on individual percussive outputs, or if you process the percussives via the Lester, this frees those two up for other duties. In short, you could configure this whole voice scheme whichever way you'd want, and in most every configuration, you've got sheer POWER.

Also, you'll notice that much of this build is designed FOR STEREO. You can stereoize most any of the above, in a huge variety of ways. Even the percussives have that Takaab stereo fixed-pan fixed-level mixer so that you can place the individual parts in the stereo field wherever you wish, and then either drop the output of that down to the Performance Mixer, or feed it to the Lester.

Similarly, the entirety of the modulation section is intended to work as something of a single "device", cued by the various gate/trigs from timing and sequencers, or from other modulation sources. You could even chain up the entire thing as a single, self-regulating and insanely-complex modulation source, given enough patchcords and madness. This then opens up the use of the modulation section as a "feedback" system, with everything intercontrolling everything else, which then gets fed back to other things. This is super-important if you ever opt to do generative work; as a generative mod source, that section is aces!

Now, the Tetrapad...it and its expander aren't on this because my idea would be to mount them...plus your matrix mixer...in a powered 4ms Pod of the right size. This would then be an expression controller par excellence...and since it's in a small pod cab, you can then position it anywhere you want, instead of having that stuck in the case. By putting these modules in a Pod, you're upping the ergonomic ease of use, basically turning the Pod into a super-overkill version of the usual mod/pitch wheels that can be placed by your keyboard controller, and connected to the main cab via whatever patchcables are needed for a specific patch. This would be just about perfect, and make it easier to make use of the Tetrapad and matrix mixer (which are great for modulation "global" changes...that's what my 3x3 Wonkystuff one is for, as it's intended for a fifth AE cab that'll house controllers and that system's Performance Mixer).

What I'd suggest is this: just STARE at the build for a while, with a pad and paper handy to make notes about patches, groupings, and the like. After several hours, you'll probably have a melted brain...but you'll ALSO have a clearer idea of what this thing is capable of. Also, keep in mind that, while this is one hellacious system, it's ALSO expansion-friendly. If you think about how the ARP 2500 was intended to be used, this would be the "Main" case...and later, you can add "wing cabs" to this and make things even wilder without needing to disrupt anything in this case. But also like the venerable 2500, you have your expression controls handy beside the keyboard controller. So, yeah...there's a half-century of ideas in this mo'fo!

Hi The-Erc,

Wow, you got yourself a nice little Christmas gift there! Such a little box, but such a big sound! You nicely demonstrate that here in your jam! Love to see those flashing lights of the BSP even if only one channel is in use :-D

I think, the DFAM was a little bit sad here, that kind of elder child that got suddenly less attention because you got a new baby, the Werkstatt-1 ;-)

Your jam makes me to (re-) consider the Werkstatt-1, thank you very much for sharing this and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi The-Erc,

If you are willing to spend one-third of a HP per EG more, i.e. 2.67 HP/EG than consider the Triple AD from Hikari Instruments, I love that module. It can go from slow to fast ADs. If I remember well that if you don't use the first two ADs but only the third one (and you switch on both other unused ADs) those non-used-ADs are then normalised to the last AD; not 100% sure, since the manual is a bit limited but even using them as separate ADs, I love to use them, clear, easy, direct usages, 2.67hp/EG, what do you want more? ;-)

It might be a bit difficult to get one; I was lucky to get one during my last year's holiday in Japan.

Or, depending on how you are looking at it, the Doepfer - A-141-4 Quad ADSR; if you don't mind the same setting for all four ADSRs ;-) Then it's at 2 HP/EG. I know, this module is more meant for polyphonic approaches but you could misuse it, if you would like to :-)

Or the Erica Synths - Pico VC EG at 3 HP? If Pico modules is your cup of tea that is. It comes including loop functionality.
Or the Erica Synths - Pico Modulator at 3 HP which is an EG + VCA! So 1.5 HP per functionality ;-)

Then again, I think you shouldn't look too much into modules that deliver too much functionality on a too small HP surface, sooner or later that might go either on your nerves or if not at least in less comfortable user interface usage. Sometimes a single or a dual functionality on a full blown HP surface is still the best approach and gives you full functionality of everything you (might) need. Naturally, up to you to decide which way to go :-)

Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Diego,

Perhaps you should buy an additional (monster) rack and get less worried about HP space ;-) I got quite a few VCAs but that Waldorf - DVCA1 is the best so far. I still want to try the ACL - VCA I have high expectations (on the quality) there too, but from a user interface point of view, I love the DVCA1, it's seriously worth it, that's why I bought a second unit quite some while ago and now I am considering to buy a third unit of it, it's that good :-) You don't have to CV (can "to CV" be a verb? :-) ) both linear and exponential, I usually CV only the exponential but manually you can adjust the knobs for linear as well as exponential and that gives it the extra touch. Beside that, and because of that (lin+exp both at the same time possible) you can boost the signal quite seriously (it can cause a distortion if you go too far with that; easily to be detected by a red LED that quite accurately indicates if you are going over the edge, i.e. going into distortion). If I have soft/low signals, I usually use the DVCA1 to boost it up. I am sure there are VCAs that can boost the signal even stronger than the DVCA1 can do but for me it's enough at +13.5 dB.

But okay, if you insist on not going bigger with your cases, then check out the Patching Panda - Punch module (I got the old version, it was a special offer; there is now a newer version 2 I think), that's really a punchy VCA module, I love that one too, totally different from the DVCA1 though and sometimes I feel the Punch module is unclear in usage but if you have sharp/punchy fast repetitive sounds that needs to get some kick in the a*** then Punch comes in handy!

If you hold a gun at my head and I have to make a choice between QPAS or the Black Dual VCF, then it's definitely going to be the Black Dual VCF. It's more direct control, easier to understand (at the beginning, on a more deeper level both modules shouldn't be under estimated their complexity though), and more... how to put that under words... direct fun (with QPAS it's a longer learning curve kind of fun)? If you want to play with the resonance then this Black Dual VCF module is yours! It can get totally crazy nuts but it's rather easy to keep the resonance under control as well. If you want an example of how this Black Dual VCF sounds, check out this track of mine:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/8963

I demo there exactly this module! :-)

That kind of "searching for the frog" sound, I am "searching" that with this Black Dual VCF module, almost everything you hear here is almost all done by this Black Dual VCF!

For some more details please read my text at/in the above link and listen to that demo track, it should convince you to get this module! :-D

In this demo track I brought the resonance (far) over the edge :-) But you can control it a bit more subtle than I did here too.

I copy one of my comments here from that post:

I just can't stop playing with this filter, it really invites you to play around with it.

I hope that demo track will convince you and kind regards, Garfield.

Good idea! The O&C does look like a cool module but I already have a Disting Mk4 and Pam's New Workout in the rack, and I think that is my limit of menu-divey modules.
-- the-erc

Ha! That's pretty much where I've drawn the line with menu-divey modules too.

Since your audio interface has many channels maybe you want to mix in the box? In which case rather than a mixer I think you just need a bunch of output modules like the Happy Nerding Isolator or similar. (Or the really low budget option : a few passive attenuators and a bunch small-to-big jack cables)

The Micro Ornament and Crime has 4 tweakable EGs plus a TON of other stuff in 8hp, but it's menu-divey so I'm not sure if it's the best option.
-- farkas

Good idea! The O&C does look like a cool module but I already have a Disting Mk4 and Pam's New Workout in the rack, and I think that is my limit of menu-divey modules.