User Posts

If the capacity to not misinterpret the clearest of statements is any indication of one’s ability to offer meaningful advice, I respectfully suggest you stick to popcorn, Ronin.

Although I intentionally imitated your responses a couple of posts ago, I haven’t mocked anyone. I’ve criticized advice, not the people giving it. I’ve tried to clearly and politely express my points, have apologized when my criticism seemed harsher than it need to be, and even apologized if my posts weren’t helping as much as I intended to. All of this talk of political correctness, behaving like a “social justice warrior”, wanting to create a “safe-space”, “policing”, being the “master of forum etiquette”, etc, has all just been totally irrelevant.

For my sake, and anyone reading with similar questions, I’ve brought up several issues that I believe could be potentially very helpful to discuss, clarify, and answer. I might search elsewhere, and perhaps others should do the same, but for sake of clarity here are some of them:

1. Starting out with a semi-modular synth seems like a common, affordable, and potentially great way to get into modular. With something like the OP's setup – a Mother 32 and a small rack filled with Disting, Tides, Maths, and Shades, would adding some effects modules be a good idea for someone interested in making ambient drone music? Lugia agreed with this suggestion, referencing Eno’s Thursday Afternoon (one of my favs). You wrote that doing so amounted to “piling on the bad.”

2. Lugia’s response to a proposed rack that contained Elements and Rings was that having both is a waste of space and told the user they should “lose one or the other.” Lugia does seem very knowledgeable, but there seem to be many people benefiting from using both, even 2x Elements or 2x Rings.
   https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=167755&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

3. Is it really unreasonable to put thought into the design of one’s rack? One is, after all, spending thousands of dollars on it and will hopefully be using it for countless hours. Is it really so superficial to want an all-black rack? Is that really tantamount to a “decorative prop”. If so, a Make Noise shared system seems like an awfully expensive decoration.

4. Is the belief that a specific piece of gear is necessary for a particular result really so harmful that a musician who believes this should “quit immediately?” If so, (and I doubt I’m alone here) it seems some of my favorite artists should stop making music.

5. Given that regardless of one’s musical background, getting into modular synthesis and designing one’s first rack takes a certain level of guess work, is it better for someone with a specific goal to try to design a “purpose-built” system or to opt for something more versatile. I think there may be pros and cons to both, but I’m guessing that with either scenario, it’s very likely the user will end up having to replace several modules and redesign their rack. IMO, depending on how certain someone is that they’re after a particular result, it might actually make more sense to aim for designing a rack that can achieve a specific result at the expense of versatility.

6. It seems people understandably design a rack with the hopes of requiring the least amount of redesigning and with the least likelihood that they'll encounter problems/mistakes. But even to the extent that this is possible, might there actually be some value in making mistakes? Several months ago I nearly posted a question here that in retrospect was painfully easy to resolve (not so easy though, I should point out, that sales reps couldn’t offer much help). I ended up having to return two modules (though I payed zero restocking fees) and was frustrated for days, but I ended up learning a lot that I didn’t intend to.

Anyway it’s been real… //

What I just did was mimicked the way in which you’ve repeatedly responded to my posts. Before that, I’ve made every effort to be clear and polite regarding my reasons for posting, which again (again) have nothing to do with desiring a “safe-space”, or with politically correct issues, or with trying to criticize or attack anyone personally. I did write the following quite a while back:

Look: I hope it goes without saying that I’m not trying to start anything, or to insult anyone personally. We both agree that modular synths are wonderful instruments, and I agree that many people likely don’t do the necessary research required to get into this – that they post racks with serious flaws and that they benefit greatly from the advice of you, Lugia, and others…

I’ve not been trolling, and while I haven’t responded directly to proposed racks, I think it’s possible there are additional ways to offer help.

Might it be possible for us to maturely discuss some of the points I’ve brought up – to respond to them without resorting to tissue-talk, or framing things inaccurately (PC/safe-space talk), or going on about “let’s see if I can do better” as though this were a contest, etc..? I truly think doing so could be helpful.

Also please note: It was the first post for the user that began this thread. Their second and final post was: “damn, I was just looking for recommendations lol”. Despite a very straightforward, likely easily answerable question, they clearly didn't feel helped by the suggestions you and Lugia offered (and no, I’m not personally criticizing either of you).

Wow, helping others… what a novel idea. Do you need a tissue, Ronin? Have you downloaded VCV rack? There, I think I've got you matched. As for Lugia, making popcorn seems more apt to help than any of the advice of theirs I’ve quoted.
:) :)

It’s worth pointing out, Lugia and Ronin, that nothing I’ve expressed has anything whatsoever to do with political correctness.

Everything that I’ve written, both referencing this thread and with quotes from others, I did for one purpose: To question the extent to which certain advice being given on this forum actually helped the user construct a rack that they were satisfied with – something that you both continue to claim is your ultimate aim.

Please look back at this thread, Lugia. Before my first post you were the most active contributor. Point out one single bit of advice you offered that actually helped the OP design a rack that they could “enjoy and build upon for years to come”. It seems obvious that you saw an opportunity to make a point – one that you care about – but that had nothing to do with helping the OP. I quoted advice that you gave in other threads to point out that lack of help, or bad advice, is not something that seems to happen only occasionally.

For sake of clarity: I don’t particularly care about political correctness (not that it’s relevant). I believe that harsh criticism can be helpful and necessary, which is in fact, why some of my criticism has been harsh. Most importantly, it seems reasonable to me that someone should be able to highlight a lack of help, or question certain advice on this forum, and do so without being called a “passive-aggressive troll”, having their post quoted but replaced with “blah, blah, blah”, and told to “shut the (expletive) up” (I see that’s been deleted now). At the risk of being painfully clear, I couldn’t care less about the language or name calling. Rather, Ronin, I don’t think you can write that’s it’s “fine” to point out errors/disagree with suggestions, and then when someone does, write the above without contradiction.

I doubt anyone is getting much out of this thread, so in answer to your question, Ronin, I am indeed done.

Thanks, Lugia, for chiming in. I’m going to try to make a few points and then I’ll be taking a break from this. (I don’t mean for that to sound as temperamental as it may.)

You wrote: “...nor would any modular synth beginner be happy with one of these systems that only does a few things, albeit amazingly well.” I don’t agree with this at all and think it’s completely plausible that many beginners would be thrilled with a rack like the above – even with something quite a lot smaller and more restrictive. And this might relate to my next point, which is that another significant problem I’ve found on this forum is a tendency to IMPOSE one’s own values/interests onto others. Example: the very first response to a rack that was posted several days ago (made by you) was…
“Well, first off...it's really...ah...BLACK. But that's not good. Invariably, if you're creating a Eurorack along a certain look, then all you'll wind up with is a decorative prop...”

You know what I think is totally okay? Wanting to design an all-black rack. I also think it’s alright not to care at all about how your rack looks. What’s not okay are statements like yours, which not only neglect to take into account what might be important to the OP, but also actually insult them for caring about X.

This is getting into the details of Ronin’s last post and gesturing more towards a tangent, but the comment “one-trick-pony” and the implication that Ann Annie has more or less tapped all of the creative potential of that rack with a single 4 and half minute track seems ridiculous. And given your points in this thread emphasizing how much can be done with so little (steel drums with a little reverb, slinky, Pringles can) it seems ironic.

Also: perhaps I’m wrong, but based on the comments I’ve encountered on this forum I highly doubt if someone had posted a rack similar to the above, they would have received a response like Ronin’s, telling them that the rack worked but lacked versatility. I think it’s much more likely the response would have been along the lines of what I wrote...

“Some of us might be a bit rough around the edges about this, true...but when you consider that we're trying to help bedazzled kids in a candy store of epic proportions avoid the awful feeling of realizing they've spent several grand on a modular rig that only does a handful of things correctly, well, sometimes a "reality brick" thru the "fascination window" is an expedient way to get those people to realize...”

Besides the unnecessary condescension here, I fear that more than anything, Lugia, your “reality brick” is an effective tool to help people think more like you, and value the same things as you.

For any readers that might be interested, I came across this interview with Ann Annie and found it insightful and inspiring. I also found that it kind of contradicted Lugia and Ronin’s points. Also! I learned that Ann Annie’s first step into eurorack was with a Mother 32, and a 42HP rack with only one module. Kind of ironic considering the OP of this thread... You see: eurorack can all start with a very simple, restrictive setup. There’s a good chance you’ll have an excellent time with it, and as you begin to learn more, you’ll start realizing the next best steps you should take towards creating your own personal, ideal rack.

EDITED Nov 23rd 2019, 03:32

Thanks tyson… the last thing I want for active members of this forum to feel is like they’re being ganged up on, but it’s also nice to know I’m not alone here.

I managed to track down the video I mentioned in my last post. Whether or not this music is one’s taste is of course not the point. It has 33k views and over a thousand likes and the first two comments are: “this wins the grammy for best generative synth track” (Lugia’s thread titled “Why your 6U x 84 generative rig won't work” might be worth bringing up). And then: “This just leaves me breathless everytime I listen to it. It's almost painfully beautiful..”
Scroll further down and someone posts: “Amazing! How is it possible to obtain more information on a setup like this? I am no musician but I would love to have something like this at home and play around with it. I guess it will be a diccicult task to master...”

Here’s an answer/plausible scenario. Do some research and come across a site called modular grid with the unique feature of being able to create a virtual rack which you can submit for feedback. Post a similar setup to this video (or even an identical one). Receive criticism along the lines of this:

1. Lots of attractive modules but totally lacking in utility modules. Will make a great decoration or prop but good luck making music with it.

2. TWO Rings + an Elements and Plonk! Call the redundancy department. And way too many mutable instruments modules. Plus these are available in smaller HP so a total waste of space.

3. I see an Optomix but no real VCAs? Totally unusable.

4. I suggest doing a lot more research before posting another rack. Etc, etc…

Looking at a price tag around 5 thousand dollars and facing comments like these, feel really discouraged (and confused?) and never take the next steps towards getting into modular synthesis.

Was the genre of synthesis potentially just harmed?

EDITED Nov 22nd 2019, 03:45

Thanks, Ronin, for both of your replies, and I apologize if my first post sounded harsher than it needed to.

I’m not sure I agree with everything you wrote here. I’m not especially familiar with the Mother 32 but it seems like a very capable synth in it’s own right. The prospect of integrating it with a small eurorack setup that includes Disting, Tides, Maths, and Shades, and then adding some of the modules that placebo suggested (Strymon Magneto, Intellijel Rainmaker, MI Clouds, Make Noise Erb-Verb, Tiptop Z-DSP) seems to me far from “just piling on the bad.” It seems a bit strange to me that you can agree with the creative potential of a slinky or Pringles can (which I agree with too btw) but make the statement you did about the above setup. (It’s also worth noting that Lugia agreed with placebo’s recommendation to add effects modules to this rack.)

I apologize if these posts of mine aren’t helping as that’s really my intention, but I feel like the following point is valid: I think statements like yours above, and the quotes of Lugia’s that I’ve referenced, may in fact do just as much harm to the genre of synthesis than less-than-perfect setups that require the user to make adjustments as they begin to learn more.

I also think it’s possible there may be a bit more space for different approaches to a modular setup than it seems you and Lugia believe. An example… A rack that was posted a few days ago received the following criticism: “There's an Elements...and a Rings? OK with the Department of Redundancy Department, perhaps, but a waste of space otherwise. Lose one or the other.” Note they didn’t merely point out that these two modules are similar; they more or less gave an order. Yet I recall a video popping up in my youtube suggestions recently that featured a 6U case that not only had Elements and Rings, but Elements + two Rings (all three of which were being used). If I remember correctly it was quite lovely, had thousands of views and many enthusiastic comments. Might the OP of that thread have benefited from using both of those modules in a rack that was 12U / 84HP? I don’t know, but I think it’s reasonable to suggest that it’s a possibility.

Look: I hope it goes without saying that I’m not trying to start anything, or to insult anyone personally. We both agree that modular synths are wonderful instruments, and I agree that many people likely don’t do the necessary research required to get into this – that they post racks with serious flaws and that they benefit greatly from the advice of you, Lugia, and others… With a subject that can be so daunting though (it terms of learning curve and cost) I’ve found what I see as an unnecessary level of discouragement in many of the posts I’ve come across.

Ronin1973:

I came across this thread while researching suggestions for eurorack modules that would be good for making ambient music. I think it’s pretty understandable I was left feeling frustrated.

Conversations often stray from the original topic in interesting ways but I disagree this strayed “a little”. It’s more like it took an immediate detour and then started to get back on track towards the end (and yes, I’m aware that I haven’t helped in this regard). If the OP had asked for advice about creative methods for making ambient music, or for people’s feedback regarding the importance of using specific gear, this likely would have been a very helpful thread.

I was admittedly being intentionally critical, but still, I find your response a little surprising. Lugia wrote: “if you have to labor under the misapprehension that you MUST have X piece of gear to do Y sort of music, then quit immediately, as you're not really making something that truly speaks of who you are musically.” Honestly, what could be more critical than that?

Personally, I agree that focusing too much on gear can be a hindrance and distraction, but there’s also a big difference between writing that doing so “kills ones’ creativity” and suggesting someone should quit making music because they believe they need X equipment. IMO it’s totally valid for someone to believe that a particular module is an integral and necessary part of their setup because of the unique properties it has.

I was trying to offer a different perspective. I found this thread because I had the same question as the OP but found this for the most part discouraging. I wrote what I did for others who might feel similarly. In the last paragraph I was kind of questioning the helpfulness of advice in general, but you make a valid point that this is an old thread that likely won’t get much attention.

Lol indeed!

Let’s recap what happened here as it seems perfectly illustrative of how modular grid can be at its worst.

The OP asks a very straightforward question looking for suggestions for modules that would be helpful for making ambient music. They receive a straightforward reply: “Rings, Clouds, Morphagene! These 3 are practically necessities in the 'Ambient Modular' genre...”

And then Lugia, apparently feeling slighted (that’s the only explanation that makes some sense), sarcastically remarks that they should quit making ambient music since they haven’t used those… that none of their “15+ albums of ambient work are valid anymore.”

Honestly, could it have been any more OBVIOUS that placebo92 was being suggestive and just trying to help? How anyone could interpret their response as implying that one needs those three modules to make ambient music is crazy!

Lugia then writes that a belief that certain equipment is necessary is a great way to kill one’s creativity. While there’s certainly truth to that, is this not a forum dedicated to helping people learn about equipment? Within this context, how helpful is that sort of comment? And that question is actually a bit of a tangent, since my main issue here is the fact that this thread became pretty much totally hijacked and did little to help the OP (hence their very understandable reply above). Modular synths are a pretty specific instrument… Might it be beneficial to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume there’s a good reason they’ve decided to invest all of the time, money, and effort required to use one, instead of, say, choosing to use a contact mic with a slinky?

Lugia clearly know a lot about gear, but I’m also reminded of professors who know their subject well and still make awful teachers. This is not the first time (or second or third, etc) that I’ve read their posts and found them not only unhelpful but actually discouraging.

IMO advice should always be taken with handfuls of salt, but... If you’re on this forum and reading this there’s probably a good reason. And… (referencing many other threads here), there are worse things than putting together a modular setup that lacks VCAs and envelope generators, or buying a module and having to return or sell it cuz it doesn’t do what you were hoping, or even spending thousands of dollars and countless time only to realize you’d be better off with a Pringles can. My point is these “mistakes” may be frustrating while they’re happening but they’ll also likely be priceless learning experiences that ultimately help define what you’re after.