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you should leave headroom on all rails? 25-30% is a good idea... so when it says 1A... you should really only try to power 750mA of modules... this is to allow for inaccuracies in stated power consumption and higher inrush requirements (more power than stated needed on power up) of digital modules...
you're over on the -12v rail by nearly 15%
this may cause all sorts of issues - primarily not powering on properly... ie it won't work
this case is undepowered for it's size... especially when trying to power a lot of digital modules, it's probably fine when filled with mostly lower power drawing analog modules
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
sound source -> signal in of vca, envelope -> cv in of vca, vca out to monitors (or wherever - mixere, processing etc)
nb I use signal in because vcas can also be used for cv and not just audio - modulate your modulation
a filter can go before or after the vca... whichever way sounds best for you in the current patch...
this is generally the concept of modular... generate a signal, do something to it, send it somewhere - try not to mix cv into the audio path (it's possible to damage speakers), apply modulation to things
see my signature for hints on how to get the most versatility in patching for the least expense
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
yes... almost anything "can" be a modulation source...
usually it helps if your modulation source is slower than what you are modulating...
all signals in modular are just electricity varying in frequency, amplitude band shape... so to a large extent anything can be anything...
the only real caveats are that for a signal to be audible it needs to be both fast enough (>20Hz ish) and slow enough ( < 20KHz ish) and that it's not a great idea to send DC signals (slow unipolar signals) to speakers - as this can damage them...
and try not to be so loud that you damage your hearing!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I have modules that are up to 8 years old... I have over 100 modules, from over 40 manufacturers & have had 3 failures in that time... one of which was a button... which was fixed for free by the manufacturer, out of 'warranty'... and another of which may have been damage in transit (used module)... this I had to get repaired... it was 60€ for the repair... as the module was an uncommon and out of production one this was my best option - it ended up costing me slightly over the original retail proce, which wasnt' that much to be honest - is it better ot spend 60€ (or whatever) to repair a module than to effectively throw it in landfill - of course it is... in reality some modules will not be able to be repaired, due to obsolescence of parts - particularly things like processors for digital modules - but this is unforeseeable in most part by hte manufacturer - although covid did cause other issues - basic unavailability of non-obsolete parts...
the 1 year guarantee is ok in most cases - electronics usually fail very early or very late... plus local trading standards "fit for use" periods would supercede this in a lot of cases (3 years for EU & 6 for UK) - although getting that enforced can be problematic - so modules usually either fail almost straight away - often component faults - or after quite a long time - longer than any reasonable guarantee or "fit for use" has run out...
I think you are massively overestimating the amount of failures of modules - like a lot of things - if you spend a lot of time on the internet you will find complaints about something... there may seem to be a lot of complaints - but in reality there are only a very small & of users, most of the time... a lot of the time there will be clusters of failures - due to the manufacturere buying parts in batches - and maybe one batch has a tendancy to fail much earlier than other batches - for some reason only known to the original manufacturer of the part - see leds, encoders etc... the small % of users with failures tend to be much more vocal than the larger % of users who are happy & just get on with using their modules
i don't buy modules for their internal memory... nor have I had any digital modules fail on me - except in the above mentioned button failure (which was an analog component of a digital modules) if you arre worried about this stay away from modules that don't have it or use sd cards for storage, but again see previous paragraph!
as far as quality of build/customer service/repairs to modules - I generally see that anything above the absolute cheapest modules - it's quite good - most manufacturers will repair modules - you may need to pay for shipping and possibly parts...
some manufacturers have poorer reputations in other areas - generally this also seems to be reflected in this area as well - so if you want good customer services, repairs instead of landfill etc then steer clear of manufacturers with dubious ethics etc
unlike in fast moving consumer goods, there is no built in obsolescnce - ie the item being deliberately designed to fail or become unrepairable after a certain time... modules are generally designed to work for as long as possible... but it is also impossible to guarantee that every module will work forever...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
How long are you leaving between turning on your modular and tuning and playing?
if they are digital modules it should make no difference, but analog modules need sometime (anything up to 1/2 an hour & possibly more) to warm up and stabilize... if you tune before they are stabilised they will go out of tune whilst you are playing...
with marbles for all 3 X outputs to output quantized notes related to the settings on the panel you must set the X mode (button N in the manual to green) - if you have a different colour displayed on the related led, this may be the problem
Generally I think you're trying to do too much in too little space in the 3u racks... by that I mean not enough support modules per voice - & rememeber your inputs are also a voice..
general thoughts on micro versions of mutable modules - poor ergonomics kill enjoyment + trying to tune modules with trimmers is a hopeless and horrible task...
O&C - what do you think you will use this for? I'm not a big fan of these all in one multifunction modules - you can only use 1 or 2 functions at once and the UIs are compromised - simple functional modules are better everytime imo - although using htem as I method for working out what modules you actually need and then replacing that functionality is a valid method of learning - but then I would recommend having the free space in the rack to allow for that - which you haben't - & yes I do own a disting mk4 - it's almost always been used as a tape delay
notes from 1st rack (starting at the top):
Not convinced about the ADDAC input module... you mention both sax and bass... you'll need a mic for the sax, won't you? in which case I'd look at the befcao instrument interface... it can handle mic (including +48v phantom power), line and instrument level & has useful functionality like envelope following and gate extraction... disting ex is also useful here as it has one of the better pitch extractoin algos...
erica black output is way too big (and possibly completely unnecessary) for this size case - takes up way too much valuable rack space - but then so does the rack wart (a pet hate)
in a rack this size, if you want to use things like overdrives and compressors - I'd get a pedal interface (AI synthesis for example) and guitar pedals - potentially cheaper and don't waste rack sppace that'd be better used for more modulation, more filters, and most importantly utilities!!!
notes from 2nd rack:
as above where relevant plus - no envelope follower in disting mk4 iirc, maths - great module but rack too small for it imo, mixer also takes way too much space... other modules are too small on average... remember 1hp =0.58mm or 1/5" of an inch!!!
notes on 3rd rack:
as above where relevant plus - I really don't like these digital modular in a module modules - they're the absolute antithesis of modular synthesis to me - which tends towards knob per function & discrete modules that you patch together with patch cables etc - if you want something like this a laptop and vcv rack is a much better option in my opinion - even if it is connected up to the modular via something like an es9
notes on 4th rack:
same as above where relevant plus - kind of better in that it's bigger - but way too many sound sources!!!! see my signature!! read it, think about it for a considerable period of time... then apply what you have learnt to this rack...
and seriously consider your options when buying modules - you can give your money to known bigots (I believe the modern american term is edgelords - but I'm old and British) or you can give it to people who aren't - one modukle in this rack is from a company owned by a known bigot, infamous for making rape jokes in online forums... but it's your choice... most modular manufacturers are not in this category - as far as I know it's just 2 manufacturers...
also experience with fx aids - great modules - but imo the xl (or regular versionl) isn;t very practical without a cheat sheet - the pro is usable without a cheat sheet and if you set them up correctly the pro can be used as a cheat sheet for one or more of the other fx aid modules... screens are far better than leds for determining what algo you are using!!!
notes on 5th rack:
same as above where relevant plus - nothing that makes sense in terms of an actual modular synthesizer - all of this could be done cheaper and probably better in pedal form... nothing that leverages what modular is good at - modulation and utilities - or in terms of the effects - not a lot of modules that take modulation well or are that interesting... modulatable granular, delay reverb etc...
again see my signature: read it and think about it until you understand it... then apply to building a rack...
as a start: a sound source (instrument interface), a sound modifier, a modulation source (maths is great, see below), a quad cascading vca (you can never have too many vcas & the above racks are bereft of them) & some utilities - at a minimum something like a happy nerdiong 3 * MIA and some patch cables - buy no more than this to start! and add very slowly and with careful consideration
maths: download the 'maths illustrated supplement' work your way through it multiple times paying specific attention to how what and why it is doing what it's doing - as well as just using it as a dual function generator - it'll really help with your patching in general - not just self patching maths!!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
having built a few 0604 smd, I wouldn't consider 0402 smd... far too fiddly... I have some 0604 boards still to build, but increasingly poor eyesight keeps me away from them!!
I'd just buy a clone... they're only about 40-45 per channel, which is quite reasonable...
veils won't do inversion - the combination of vcas and manual attenuators/attenuverters is very complimentary...
as for an output module - in my 8 years or so of having a modular I've never had one - although the first mixer I bought had a headphone out built in... and I still have that and another mixer with headphone out... otherwise I've often just gone straight into an old yamaha mg10 mixer, without any issues... if I needed balanced outputs from the modular (and you only really need those for longer runs - especially if you are in the UK or EU and the power is decent) then I'd get an output module - otherwise as far as I'm concerned they're an unnecessary waste of both rack space and cash!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I'd skip the single VCAs and invest in a quad cascading one such as a veils clone ... you can never have too many vcas!!!
and I'd add some attenuators/attenuverters - clouds really needs them - specifically for reducing modulation from fulll voltage range to 'tiny little bits' - less really is more when modulation sources talk to clouds! Happy nerding 3 * MIA is a good example...
take a look at my signature... spend some (& buy some I mean considerable) time thinking deeply about it!!!!
it's really helpful for steering newbies into good practices...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
It really depends on how the designer has implemented it, and works on a module by module, and algorithm by algorithm basis...
you really need to read the manual for the specific module
usually the left input doubles as a mono input... some stereo algorithms on some modules (often reverbs) will only take a mono input (and some will use the right input for something else - clocking for example)
some modules will output a signal only on the left output, others will just make a copy of the mono input and send it to the right output (this potentially means that they work as a dual mono output - the same signal is sent to both the L & R outputs) and others will 'stereoise' the mono input (usually by adding a slight delay) - so that the diffeent signals are output from the L & R channels...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I like my Black Sequencer... patched into my sinfonion with a beatstep pro for changing patterns on that... I also have a few other sequencers, to change thing up... I'd keep whatever simple sequencers you have - they're very useful for modulation, for example!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I don't have that one, but I have a couple the same size with trimmers, instead of proper pots, same as the AISynths one... and tbh I wish I'd bought 2 doepfer ones - ergonomics and attenuversion!
But saying that I always like Abe's modules (& have a lot of respect for him as a champion of DIY modular) etc - not that I have any - so probably a decent choice!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
matrix mixer is an obvious addition - tbh I prefer the doepfer to any of the kits that will fit - the nlc one is great but both are quite big... the doepfer also has better ergonomics than most kits
use it to leverage the modulation sources you already have... copies of modulation in -> related, but different modulation out... with built in attenuation, if not attenuversion...
also a sequential switch - doepfer will be as inexpensive as any kit...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Wow, that's already A LOT to work with. Thanks so much!
ask and you shall reveive!!! hahaha
I have yet to digest everything and will take some time to do that but a few quick thoughts/takeaways:
@Zacksname: Your comments on the VCAs have cleared things up for me a lot. Thanks! Also, I've been thinking about quantization and wasn't sure how to prioritise it. But having read your post I think workflow-wise it sounds like an interesting path for me. I'm familiar with the concept but somehow it slid in and out of my priorities over the past couple of weeks. But it makes total sense.
it's a juggling act - piorities change constantly... the simple act of adding a module, will almost definitely change the priority of the next module and so on... no plan survives contact with the enemy... and your biggest enemy is yourself!
@JimHowell70: On my way to the tattoo studio already, haha ... people are talking about your signature on the streets.
pictures (and/or field recordings), or it never happened!!! hahaha
but seriously I think a t shirt is better - cheaper and less permanent!!
I think my next step will be to take a deeper dive into utilities - and then probably start with some modulation + utilities on the Moogs before expanding the setup to be its own thing. I guess that could be a good strategy? Case wise: I agree on the Rackbrute looking hideous ... will have a closer look on TipTop Audio (but psst... I think they are looking even worse, but as you said: Who cares in the end).
you should see most of my racks... they're diy'ed out of skirting board... at least 30 years after I did any wood work - they are wonky... unfinished with sides poking out above the tops... but they do the job and in low light from the right angle they look ok(ish)...
functionality over aesthetics everyday, in every way... at least in relation to synth racks!!!
Alright, time to dig a little deeper ...
-- steben
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
VCO
With my Moogs, I already have several analog VCOs. I'm considering adding something digital (like Plaits). But I really like the sound of the Make Noise STO which is why, at the moment, I'm considering both.
yeah you'll probably want a. couple of these (at least) at some point and a wavefolder and some dedicated utilities - especially as you mentioned west-coast - ie additive, not subtractive synthesis
the newly announced (but not yet available) tiptop buchla 259 might be a good option in the future...
VCF
As with VCOs, I love the Moog filters but already have four in my semi-modulars, so I don't need another basic east-coasty VCF - I think? The Make Noise QPAS seems like an interesting choice to me and I imagine it pairs well with the STO. But I'm open for suggestions.
doepfer make a number of interesting (& inexpensive) clones of classic filters - I particularly like the wasp and the SEM
Modulation
I'm considering starting with Maths and an LFO (DivKid Ochd). Should I get an additional envelope generator (e.g. Erica Synths Black VCA, Doepfer A140, or ALM Pip Slope)? Or maybe a completely different combination?
If you're wanting keyboard like responses - then an adsr is a good idea - maybe some more research is in order, the erica sysnths black vca is not an envelope generator, it's a consumer of envelopes!!!
I see @Zacksname recommended a matrix mixer - this is an excellent idea for taking simple modulation and making it more complex - get the doepfer - inexpensive, good ergonomics, inverters etc... this will also help with attenuation of modulation sources... often full range modulation is not what you want, attenuation = subtelty
re Maths: fantastic module one of my favourites - really comes alive when you dig in - sownload thte 'maths illustrated supplement' and work your way through it multiple times - concentrating on what, why & how maths is doing what it's doing!!! whilst it's primarily a primer for patch programming (a very west coat concept) maths, the concepts and lessons can be easily extended and applied to the whole of a modular synthesizer
VCA
I know, "You can never have too many VCAs," but how do you choose a good starting point? I've selected a Tangle (4xVCA) and an Optomix (VCAF, if that counts). For output, I’m considering an extra Pico Out. I'm a bit confused in this area (= even more than in the other areas).
optomix good! veils clone really good... continuously variable between linear & exponential response curves (primarily for cv & audio, respectively) etc...
output module: don't buy one unless you need one & if you do try a basic passive attenuator first and a vca second before thirdly succumbing to an output module... unless you desperately must have balanced outputs due to distance or need a headphone output (but better to buy an end of chain mixer with a headphone out in that case)
"you can neverr have too many vcas" - correct, especially quad cascading ones, but the same is almost true about mixers - sub-mixers (preferably with attenuversion and offset - primarily for cv), matrix mixers and a decent end of chain mixer are always good investments
Sequencing / Randomness
With the Moogs and the Keystep I feel there's a lot of sequencing sources available to me already. Therefore, I'm looking for something simple and randomy. I’m considering combining Pamela's PRO Workout with what I already have and maybe a Turing Machine or Wogglebug for some extra uncertainty? I understand they are different beasts. Currently, I'm leaning towards the Wogglebug for a start. But maybe it's dumb to include so many modules by the same maker ... ?
Pam's can do pitched random loops - etc - like a turing machine or wobblebug... except for both of those you'd almost definitely want a quantizer too... which will eat a channel of pam's... start with Pams!
instead of random - consider chaotic instead... triple sloth is great for this...
& don't forget the attenuvertting mixers that you will need to tame the resulting random/chaos either way!
Effects
As I mentioned, I currently use a pedal board for effects, so I’ve included an effects return module but no effects module. Aside from reverb and delay I can't say my music is dependent on many effects. And I've read mixed opinions on effect modules in Eurorack. Optionally I'm considering a Tiptop Audio Z5000 (alternatively an FX Aid XL). Opinions?
FX Aid PRO!!! I have both the xl and the pro... the pro is 10000 times more useable... not only because it has a screen so you can actually see what algo you are using - but it holds almost all the possible algos & includes a basic scope - pesky thing that deaf people use to see what their modulation is doing, instead of just sending it into the pitch input of a vco & using their ears!!!
Utilities
Same as above with some "swiss army knives" like Ornaments & Crime or Disting MK4. They seem useful in that they let you explore stuff you don't have yet as a distinct module. The reason I haven't included them is a) the menu diving and b) that I probably have a lot to play with and to understand already. But maybe I'm totally wrong here and some allrounders might be useful. Happy about suggestions, especially on what other useful stuff is missing.
ah, finally the really important stuff... not the overly complicated digital, menu driven abominations that are O&C & disting, but simple things like sequential switches, logic, clock dividers, mixers, mults, attenuverters etc you need these!!!
take a look at my signature - read it and then spend a considerable time thinking deeply about it and the implications of it for you rack... then think some more... then come back and thank me for distilling such wisdom into a simple formula... I recently had someone say (on another forum) they'd had it tattoed onto their body... I challenged them for pictures, which were not forth coming... I believe I may have called their bluff... but I should get t-shirts made up!!
just kidding about the O&C & disting... well sort of, they are annoying, but they're very useful to have around... especially the disting - which I have - it has to be used wisely though - favourite mode is key and replacing using it's algos with dedicated modules, is a bloody good idea...
Case
In a Rackbrute 6U, this configuration would more or less fit my budget, especially if I can get some modules used. It leaves me with only 50 - 60 ish HP for future expansions and I'm aware that's not much. But I also like it as a compact skiff for gigs and maybe use it in my band. So the reasoning is to add a bigger rack later on and keep this anyway. And I know how that sounds in the context of Eurorack ... but I’ve never been a fan of collecting gear—but let’s revisit that in five years or so. ;)
I've said it before & I'll say it again - TIPTOP MANTIS - best bang for buck starter case there is... combination of price/size/decent power supply & manufacturer reputation there is... it's the sweet spot... some people dislike it's aesthetics - but quite frankly who gives a fuck when it's covered in patch cables and you're rocking out to your bleeps n bloops????????
plus no f'ing rack wart stealing space from important modules and no irrelevant marketing branding shite - if I had one and was playing live I'd have to gaffer tape the back, lest anyone in the audience thought I was playing an arturia synth and not just encasing my modular!!! & the rackbrute is as fugly as I sincerely hope both Uli b-company & the guy who runs Synthrotek's wive's are...
plus it's underpowered if you use too many digital modules... don't do this!!! either of them - seriously leave at least 25-30% headroom on all power rails so as not to oexperience disappointment when your modular won't start up properly - inrush is a thing, believe me... or use too many digital modules... you need utilities too, see both above and below!!!
and... breathe...
hope this helped!!!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I quite liked the look and form factor of a double rackbrute 6U
Hadn't thougt that power would be an issue tho.
Guess anyone could have made that mistake starting out
it's a common issue - often found when a power supply starts failing...
For now i took out the chainsaw so i can still explore
I will be investigating a self build case tho.
My current studiodesk (also self built) needs replacing so .... i want cook up a new design with integrated rackspace.
Preferrably adjustable in hight as well. @JimHowell
About those befaco excalibus power supplies?
What are their power rating and would any old weller soldering iron suffice to build it?
-- Chrissozz
I think they're 1.2A on both the +ve and -ve 12v rails - this should be sufficient for 2 rows, depending on the modules - I have a good distribution of digital (mostly mutable), analog and passive modules and can in most of my cases run 3 rows of up to 104hp from one easily - under 80% utilization - out of the 3 9u and 2 6u cases I run with them iirc only 1 needs a bit of help (a frequency central power supply for a few modules)
most of mine were built with a 25€ soldering iron - only the latest one was built with ny hakko - just be aware they're really time consuming (26 headers with 16 pins each)
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I've never been a fan of the rackbrute - don't like the design - and the power solution is m'eh - rackwart & all -
-- JimHowell1970
My experience of the Rackbrute wasn't good, Power module got so hot that is always smelled like melting plastic, sent it back, manufacturer repaired, lost confidence in the case and sold on. It even made my modules run hotter than my 2x TipTop UZeus power. Now I'm on Konstantlab power for my bigger case and my 2x small cases are on the uZeus and no overheating.
-- wishbonebrewery
Your experience makes me even less of a fan...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
cases have power supplies that are designed to be sufficient when the case is filled with a reasonable distribution of module types - ie some digital, some analog, some passive... although some are just because they are cheap...
I've never been a fan of the rackbrute - don't like the design - and the power solution is m'eh - rackwart & all - the only reason I would suggest a rackbrute was if someone was expanding a minibrute2/2s & even then it's at a push and based on space requirements & even then I'd be railing against them!!! even the branding is too much... if I had one and wanted to play out with it, I'd have to gaffe tape the back to hide the branding - lest 1/2 the audience thought I was playing an arturia synth - not just using one of their. cases for a modular!
in my experience the tiptop mantis is one of the better powered cases - no rack wart!!! - sufficient for almost all audio applications - not quite up to it if tryiong to power a full compliment of gen2 LZX video synth modules - because the -12v is too low - but not far off! but that points towards getting creative with analog utilities etc (doepfer are great for this)
the b-company "clone" of the mantis - the go case - on the other hand - is underpowered imo - due to them making the case 40% bigger but failing to upgrade the power supply which is apparantly a direct clone of the mantis one - which is probablyu= fine if you fill it with their roland and moog clones - but start putting a load of high draw digital modules in it and you end up in the sasme boat as the OP
doepfer 6u racks are also very well powered - the 9u ones seem a bit underpowered to me... haven't looked at the rackspace to power supply ratio in their bigger ones though... but again I suspect the 6 u are fine and the 12 u are fine - but the 8u not so much!
if you follow the formula in my signature (it scales well from tiny to bigger than you can imagine) you are likely to not have problems with power in cases that have decent power supplies
if you are building your own case and adding power I recommend the befaco excalibus power supplies as very good - 1 per 6u works well and they are very quiet - no noticable ripple up into video rates (MHz, not just KHz for audio), no rackwart, equal -ve and +ve rails and available DIY - a simple if tedious build (due to the number of headers that need soldering) - & low form factor - all headers are on the edges, not upright
btw - there's a great primer on modular power in the stickies of the 3u & 1u subforum at modwiggler... including why you need to leave a load of headroom - see previous post for synopsis
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I think the last rack is much better at least in the first instance although it is still (virtually) unplayable... and imnsho - there are still way too many sound sources, not enough sound modifiers or modulation sources and definitely no where near enough utilities...
this is partly due to layout... the sequencers are in places where they will be obscured by cables, so difficult to access, and the magneto, is as far away from what I imagine to be your end of chain mixer as possible - so unneccessarily long cable runs for no benefit whatsoever!!!
I'd rather have this in 2, 6u racks - for reasons of ergonomics... one near vertical primarily for voices, processing and modulation and one in front of it near horizontal for control, sequencing and mixing... for this I'd chhoose mantis cases as they can be fixed in this position...
there are also functions that are missing - which are needed to facilitate the usage of the synth...
how are you going to split the output of the sequencers to the sound sources? please explain...
also submixing voices before processing with filters and delays/reverbs before end of chain mixing is a very good idea!!
why only a single filter? you have a lot more voices than that (I kind of count 7) - I'd realistically want at least 5 or 6: assuming the pulsar generators are going to be kind of used as drones (not enough envelope generators) then one each for those, one for the sampler, at least one for the drum kit, one for the plasma voices and one for the sinc legios...
whilst I'm a big fan of the magneto - I have one and love it - I think it's not a good fit for a rack this size, especially with so many voices in it... you need the space for other modules... the same could be said of both the plasma voices & pulsar generators... slightly smaller modules that do similar things are undoubtedly available... and would free up space considerably...
why 4 sinc legios??? I'd expect that 2 would realistically be enough for a single bass voice - either slightly detuned or in combination with the warps clone... please explain your intended usage of 4 identical sound sources for a single bass voice, with no filter... reducing these from 4 to 2 would free up a lot of needed space...
to a large extent the rack still demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of modular synthesis and in particular patching modular synths - which is to be expected from a newbie... but arguing about how you know better with people who almost definitely have significantly more knowledge and experience of modular than you isn't exaclty charming is it??? at least som eof the people helping would, if modular synth forums were academic bodies, hold doctorates, based on the amount of research, practice and deep thought they have excerted on the subject, whilst you are effectively applying to an associates degree...
this almost always ends with people coming back and saying they should have listened!!!
maybe eat some humble pie!!
remember we are trying to help you... something that you have asked us to do & that we are doing freely!!!
plus the rack appears to be 85hp not 84hp... dfficult - the top row won't fit in 84hp... so maths/spatial awareness isn't a core skill either...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
i just like to design things for fun. dont you think, if i work out all the bugs, that a system like this could make one even more creative? do you have any specific complaints or do you just think its just too much? peace out.
-- singular_sound
I think it's definitely too much to get at once... do remember that all plans fail as soon as the enemy is engaged - and that enemy is you!! and quite frankly you need it to...
as a one off purchase - it will likely be overwhelming and will almost definitely not work how you want it to in practice... plus if you haven't got the money for it in your hand right now, it's almost definite that some modules you've picked will go out of production and become like rockinghorse shit - and new ones that are (potentially) more interesting will appear...
I'm revisiting this after taking a look at the racks - they show a poor understanding of the necessities of modular synthesis - it's almost devoid of utilities (including some that you'd absolutely need in order to make tonal music - sequencers without quantizers & no dedicated quantizers, too few vcas and not a sub mixer or attenuverter/attenuator/offset to be found), no filters or waveshapers, not enough modulation, way too many sound sources with almost definitely not enough support modules to control them - the list could go on forever... and contains quite a few modules that are only available used and possibly difficult plus some modules that are near unuseable...
either start with vcv rack (or similar) and then start with a much smaller rack or just start with a much smaller rack with a few modules and expand slowly... this way you'll learn modules better and to a much deeper degree - and learn patching techniques - that you almost definitely won't do if you bought everything at once... and you won't need 1/2 the modules you have here to achieve what you want - but you'll NEED a good few other modules to achieve it...
a good starting point is: a sound source, a modulation source, a sound modifier, a way to play and a way to listen (I'd go for a quad cascading vca for this - it'll be mono, but it'll do the job) - and then expand that towards one of your goals and then start on another and then work out how to get them to co-operate...
4 12u cases are a multi year project - whether you go all in and buy everything at once or if you build up slowly... you still have to learn the modules and you need to learn how to patch them together and how to control them - and at this size of modular it's at multiple different levels - which generally requires multiple sets of things like vcas and mixers and envelope generators etc etc etc
if you bought all of this as is in one go - you'd need to buy at least another 2 cases the same size to add the modules you'd need to support the ones you'd have already bought...
take a look at my signature and think long and hard about what it says... and especially think about how it relates to the racks you have planned etc etc..
and this is coming from someone with a similar sized modular and a lot of expereience - I'd be looking at this and wondering how to get more than a thrird of it to work not because I don't understand the modules that are there or that I'm overwhelmed by the size of it - it'd be because I'd be missing the things that I'd need to have in order to get it to work - filters, waveshapers, enough modulation & primarily the utilities that glue all these things together...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I really like zadar - especially as it has built in attenuation...
imo there's not really enough space for another sound source (due to not enough space for support modules for it) - so leave that for the next case - along with a matrrix mixer...
you could probably squeeze in another filter too - if you move things about a bit
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Thanks, indeed low on quantizers. I've added an Ornament & Crime, should provide at least 2 quantizers. The disting EX can serve as 2 more if needed.
As for VCA's there are already 8 on board (1 Dual in row 2, and a Quad VCA + Dual VCA in row 3), apart from 4 EG's (knowing a slew limiter can be used as a simple EG, I might have 5). Shouldn't that be enough VCA's ?
As for mixers there is a 3-in-1, a 4-in-2, and 2 more 3-in-1 unity mixers. I may be using my external mixing panels .
What is a cascading VCA?
-- Ignis
I'd use all 4 channels of the O&C - better to use the same quantizer if possible... and the disting for somehting else...
maybe it's enough - I tend to use a lot of vcas - for note shaping, voltatge controlled volume control and for VC modulation (modulate your modulation!!)
I also tend to use a lot of mixers - mixing waveforms from the same vco, or from multiple vcos before filtering for example...
matrix mixer, matrix mixer matrix mixer!!!! unfortunately saying it 3 times does not summon 1 - my main application for these is to take copies of 4 modulation sources and mix them together in different ratios - to get 4 more related, but different modulation sources - which are also attenuatted - almost never use full range modulation.... but they can also be used for send/return to effects and for feedback loops... amongst other things - reallt, really useful!
cascading vca - it's a for example quad vca that also mixes the outputs - sometimes the inputs and sometimes the cv - veils for example, or the intellijel quad vca...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Things I might be missing are CV quantizers or mixers. I'll need to built the rack myself (especially as I want cable guides), and then discover what I still may be missing.
-- Ignis
definitely appears to be missing quanyizers... more mixers would also be good... probably at least one cascading vca - as it looks like you are low ion vcas compared to envelope generators - maybe a matrix mixer - and fill the left over space with other utilities...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
If you have the ability to use vcv and your modular together then I'd explore the random sources in there to start with - as they are free... they may help you decide... there's no menu diving on Marbles... just a few modes & especially with vcv where you can choose them from a menu, it's very easy to get on with!!!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
maybe an fx aid... it has both bit reduction and some lo-fi algos...
or just get a noise source and mix a little in either to the audio or whatevers envelope you are using to open the vca
-- JimHowell1970
That's kind of what I'm trying to avoid here, I thought of that way, with an enveloppe follower and noise source, but that's require a lot of modules and a lot of patching.
Not really... it only needs a 2 channel mixer & the noise source on top of what you already have (& you may already have the mixer) send the envelope from the black sequencer that you are using to open your vca and send it to a small mixer instead, also send the noise source to this mmixer, send the mix of the envelope and the noise to the vca instead of the envelope...
& both a basic noise source and plenty of basic mixers are kind of useful in the context of any modular synthesizer...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
maybe an fx aid... it has both bit reduction and some lo-fi algos...
or just get a noise source and mix a little in either to the audio or whatevers envelope you are using to open the vca
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
for a guitar input I really like the befaco instrument interface - clean (unlike the doepfer) and has envelope follower and gate extactor built in... and can take mics (including phantom power) as well, so really interesting addition - to quote Ed O'Brien "guitars are oscillators"
maths is almost a no brainer to me - download the 'maths illustrated supplement' and work through it a few times concentrating on what, why and how - it will massively improve your patching game!
modulation is always a good addition - as are utilities - things that can route signals about in different ways and alter them - they also have the advantge of tending towards the less expensive side... if you ask me these are probably the most important modules in a modular to have lots of... see my signature and have a good long think about it & how it would apply to your
if you're a professional guitarist - I expect you have at least a few effects pedals about - get a pedal interface or 2 or 3 and try patching them in - experiment with delays and reverb before filtering etc
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
more modulation would be good - either lfos or envelope generators - even an ADSR if you want to use a keyboard or sequencer...
utilities would also be good , very good - clock dividers, sequential switches, attenuverters, a matrix mixer...
if it was me I'd want a whole extra row to fit these things in!!! and I'd use the 30hp free to add a couple of effects modules... especially for experimenting with delay/reverb before filtering & distortion...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I ordered this module for a small POD used to modulate my EMS Synthi and it's a wonderful device!! It not only does division of 2 / 4 / 8 but also can output either tigger or gate. For the EMS I need a short trigger and I'm dividing an external random gate from anotehr module...so it both divides it AND converts it to a trigger, very handly.
Not only can it do the division but at the same time the top section can be used as a separate clock generator with time determined by tap tempo on the switch with a nice tactile click. All this for less than $100, in a 2HP module that is only 22mm deep fitting easily into my tiny 4ms POD.
Great build quality, great functionality, nice company, very highly recommended!
-- drewskee
how does it handle audio?
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
On the utilities front, I would be curious for a few more specifics. I do have Maths, Pamela's Pro, the Zadar, Quadratt, the Belfaco Instrument Interface, the Intellijel MIDI CV and Expander (I have a Zaquencer that I can use to sequence up to four channels), the Happy Nerdings 4X mixer and lots of utility functions built into the other modules so I thought I was pretty well covered. Still, I am new to this and very much appreciate the learnings I've got from spending a lot of time (probably too much!) on this site and ModWiggler. So let me know.
Thanks.
-- BobOD
read my signature... and think about it!
maths: yes it has some utilities built in, but if you use it for more than just the blatently obvious, ie you download the 'maths illustrated supplement' and work your way through it a few times concentrating on what, why & how maths is doing what it's doing... and keep using it in this way (& this is really what makes maths worthwhile) then those utilities will be used up in self patching... maths is much more than the sum of its parts... it's in a lot of ways a microcosm of modular - a module that can be self-patched in order to program it to do more interesting things than it appears able to do just by looking at it
pams: again, whilst it has some utilities built in, they are mostly for internal use...
zadar: modulation source. not a utility...
befaco instrument interface: I'd class this as a sound source, not a utility... great module - I have 2...
intellijel midi module & expander: again not really utilities... I kind of left out sequencing, although I'd be tempted to consider them modulation sources...
happy nerding mixer: yes a utillity... but you need lots more of these in practice... they're for cv as well as audio
"utility functions in other modules": only convenient for that module, you'll also need them to be in separate modules so they can be patched elsewhere
utility modules really means modules that can route signals about & modify them... by copying (multing them), switching them about, mixing and modifying them... they're one of the big difference from fixed architecture synths... they're what really allow you to patch your modular in different ways...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I'd take a look at my signature and have a good, long think about how it applies to your rack - it's a rough guide to getting the most versatility in patching for the least expense
imo too many sound sources, not enough modulation or utilities... & too many very big modules...
try to cut down to 2 sound sources... so that you can properly support them... I'd lose either the mavis or the cs-l - this will free up space for more modules...
starlab also takes up a lot of space in a case this size...
I'd probably want a free running lfo and/or perhaps a random/chaos module...
and on to utilities... this is almost always the case in newbie racks... not enough vcas (they are for cv as well as audio - modulate the modulation!!!), not enough mixers (again they are for cv as well as modulation & that cs-l can benefit from quite a few mixer channels before being sent to a filter)... and that's just the tip of the iceberg... utilities are really where modular excels over fixed architecture synths
the arbhar comes with 2 expander modules which may bbe quite handy
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
hi, i just wanted to hear your thoughts and opinions on my system that ive built if you would replace/add something.. im a little bit hesitant about maths
-- flow3r
why are you hesitant about maths - have you worked your way through the 'maths illustrated supplement' multiple times, paying close attention to what, why and how maths is doing what it's doing? if not, do this and re-evaluate...
I'd want more utilities - see my signature...
I'd also want a bigger case - 104hp &/or another row... quantisers are really useful if you want to make 'tonal music', maybe some effects...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
As another forum member eloquently puts it, the utilities are the polish that makes your shining modules shine. T
that'd be me...
I'll refer you to my signature... take some time to understand it...
more modulation, more utilities, another voice would all be great additions...
more modulation - I'd look at both Pam's and batumi
more utilities - vcas (grab a quad cascading one - either a veils (clone) or the intellijel one) "you can never have too many vcas!!!!" , matrix mixer (really useful for so many things - but combining modulation is a standout), an offset/attenuator/attenuverter (happy nerding 3 * mia), sample and hold, sequential switch, etc etc
another voice - it could be anything, but for a second 1 - a couple of simple analog vcos, a simple mixer and a low pass (or state variable) filter (along with the above utilities) is a good call...
I hear you on the knob per function, but a disting or similar is a fantastic learning tool... especially if you make use of favourites and grab actual modules to replace the algos if you start using it on one most of the time
Pams menu structure is quite shallow and easy to use - but it adds a lot of functionality in. a small module...
I'd also want to add delay and/or reverb.. but then I'm a bit of a delay junkie... (& getting more and more addicted to reverb)
personally I'd recommend the fx aid pro as a starter for this - so many algos + a screen so you can tell which one you're using (& a basic scope, which is useful, but noit essential)
I think effects are really useful in sound design - especially in modular - where you can modulate them and have them anywhere in the chain - delay/reverb into filter inot anothe reverb or delay etc etc etc
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Too many voices in a small space without enough modulation and utilities.
I've lost count of the number of times I've written that exact sentance... it's a very common newbie miustake... wanting lots of voices without a clue of the difference between a vco and a voice...
Think of how many different things are on the MS20 just to make that one voice (for the most part) feel alive and musical - envelopes, an LFO, two filters, sample and hold, "ring mod", and the external signal processor, plus a pitch wheel thingy. That's the sort of approach you want to take to modular if you want to get more out of it than you would just with complete synths and pedals.
indeed - probably a good idea to change "complete synths" in the last line to "incredibly basic synths"
start with a single voice... get the modules you need to support that voice...
if you think you'll want more than 1 start with a bigger case - a tiptop mantis is a good sized starter case - suitable for 2-3 voices... and when you choose things like modulation or vcas - buy quads - unless you have very very good reasons to buy fewer
Maths can do a lot of things, but not all at once, and certainly not enough for all these.
but it is an incredibly useful & versatile module... & something you can grow into - see the "maths illustrated supplement" for more details...
Pam's is also very powerful, but you don't want to rely on it for basic modulation, and it isn't very hands-on. None of these modules are necessarily bad,
in fact quite the opposite - all the modules are great, but not neccessarilt together in a small starter rack
plus read the manuals properly - Pams can be used as a quantizer - so no need for a separate one - plus nowadays I'd buy the pro pams and not the older "new"
but you should probably use this much space to make one or two excellent, super-flexible voices rather than 4 with what is probably slightly under the bare minimum of support.
more like 1...
Watch videos about complete modular systems, like the Make Noise Shared System/Tape and Microsound systems, or even do a bit of research on the suggested systems from Buchla (careful not to get sucked into that, though, because, while Buchla stuff is awesome, it makes Eurorack look like smart financial planning). Semi-modular synths as well. Get a sense of what people are using and calling "complete instruments" and why designers and users feel that way. It will help you design your system's vital plumbing in an informed way and make these modules feel and sound more like yours.
-- Zacksname
also take a look at my signature and have a good long think about it.... it's a simple formula for getting most versatility in patching for the least outlay (& scales from the smallest to the biggest systems)
a good starting point for a modular is:
a sound source, a sound modifier, a modulation source, a way to play and a way to listen (a quad vcdascading vca will work and is a good investment) plus if possible a few utilities
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
thank you for the your insight, Jim! i do have reverb and delay pedals and to save rack space i'm planning to keep effects as pedals, unless i can squeeze one in later on.
make sure you get some pedal interface modules then - modular is very high volume compared to effects pedals
i was planning on using the keystep pro to sequence.
a second vco would be way down the line. first want to start with a manis and build around that and the mother32, grab a pams and maths or maybe make noise function to save space, and fill up the rack space ive got left with filters, vcas and utilities.
-- madTraffick
I'd definitely go for the maths over the function... much more than just an extra function generator - the utilities in the middle make it 4-5 * the usefulness - and that's without learning to patch program it...
seriously the mantis is the way to go for a case - not the 3u rackbrute... you wouldn't believe the number of people who I've told this to - only for them to just buy a smaller case and then 2-3 months later they message me to say - yeah you were right, I just bought a mantis!!!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
