Slightly reminiscent of the (Chris) Clark track "Lord of the Dance", if anybody remembers that?
Wowzer Lugia.
That was brilliant. I like different packages for the reason that they can be used together or stand alone in portable setting like if I had just the Buchla Skylab that can be my workstation at a club DJ type event. But yeah the wall of power as you discuss would be impressive indeed! I have a buddy with a wall similar to that but not quite as big. I was in awe when he showed me his setup.
BUT my budget is much smaller and realistic so I am happy to play in the small end of the fish pond before diving deep into Eurorack. Even if I won the 100 million dollar lotto tomorrow, I would probably never spend 50k at a pop on new gear. Probably get one system and master it then see about options. My experience being new to all this taught me to squeeze out drops from one module- the 0-coast which is amazing for that itself. I can only image what 10 modules would do for me!
Agree with you here Lugia, and I have Cubase and Ableton to do that software stuff. For me, it is fun to experiment and sketch out ideas on hardware whether it be modular or hardware synths and then import the samples into a computer for mixing and remastering into a final product. That is my goal to produce a soundtrack for a novel/screenplay and short film project. If you look at what the pros do like Hans Zimmer- he uses synths and modular gear and then samples into his custom computer workstation or his assistants do that work and he just plays around on the synths and modular.
The Cirklon, honestly, does nothing for me. At that price point, you're then getting into the range where you may as well be using a laptop + a decent MIDI-CV setup like an ES FH-1 + expanders. Sequencers have very real purposes, but that device starts to get beyond the real point behind them, and I think the better solution at that point is software-based.
Synth wall, eh? 50k budget or so, hm? Ooooooooookay...this build uses four Doepfer 9U Monster Cases and two Doepfer Monster Case Bases.
Now, the first thing you'll notice immediately is a lot of repetition in the modules. This is very deliberate. When you're building on THIS scale, what you want is to pick what would make sense in, say, a Pittsburgh EP-420, and then repeat this over and over so that you can generate a very massive, complex sound, but at the same time you don't wind up getting utterly lost on the patch panel. You know what all the devices are, and their location is all grouped so that each set of modules functions as a singular unit. This is why you also see a lot of 2hp Mixers interspersed throughout the VCOs and LFOs. Each brace of four devices can be easily summed-down into a much more complex signal. And where there are four devices in a module, these modules get their own mixer, allowing for extremely complex admixtures of waveforms. In other places, multiple modules exist to service other sets of multiple modules, such as you see on rows 3-5, right cabs.
So, the top two rows are 'voicing'. There are a total of forty-eight oscillators, although in the case of the VCOs in the Sputnik Duals, one of each will be used as an audio modulation source by default due to that module's architecture. Each oscillator section also has its own summing mixer. The top row (which also contains the buffered mults and passives for CV distro) is summed at a Quad VCA, so each submix group has VCA dynamic control. Row two, left cabs sums with an mixer that can split into either 8-1 or 4-2, with inversion possibilities. This section also contains four slew limiters, located near the CV mult/distro section above. Row two, right cabs is waveshaping: three ring mods, a subharmonic generator, harmonic multiplier, two Elby triple waveshapers, two Tiptop Folds, a Doepfer A-137-2 waveform animator, and four active Moog CP3 clones, which then sum down further via another Quad VCA.
The functions on row three are split. Left cabs is the LFO section, right is a SISM, two A-143-1s which can function as AD envelopes or as complex function generators. Two more sets of quad FGs are to the right of those, feeding a pair of quad LPGs. The Pan/Mix on the end allows summing of or crossfading between the main mix outputs of the quad LPGs if needed.
Rows four and five, left cabs are all complex modulation sources, with more SISMs, 16 linear VCAs (summable) and more 8-1/4-2 mixers as seen above for complex modulation source mixing. At the end of this section are four VC Polarizers for inversion/modulation of summed modulation signals.
Rows four and five, right cabs contain the complex envelopes (four Stages, four Quad ADSRs) and SISMs for envelope mixing. Then the filters take up the rest of this section. Each filter subrow is duplicated, but filters can be broken out of this and/or interconnected as needed. A pair of formant filters is in place for the Doepfer A-106-1 resonance inserts, although it's possible to also use the EMW Multi Bandpasses for this as well. Note that the primary filters in this build are filter pairs, which can allow for further breakout of filtering functions as well as complex interpatching for elaborate timbral behavior.
Row six is where the architecture of the build starts changing. The first few modules are random sources; the HN EQ by the Sputnik random source is for VC noise coloration, so that the noise distribution can be modulated and changed for the WCRS's use. Four Shiftys are after this for arpeggiation of the WCRS's sample and hold or, just as easily, arpeggiation across any sampled source. Up to sixteen discrete stages of analog shift registers are available if all four Shiftys are patched in series. Four window comparators follow for complex gate/trigger extraction from modulation curves. After this, an ARC Artificial Neural Network handles complex logic functions over gate/trigger behavior for timing complication. The Bytom is a gate/trigger integrator. This is followed by more gate/trigger extraction modules, then CV manipulators (two Ladik minimum/maximums and two EMW manual CV folders). At the end of this section, four linear VCAs are in place, along with a CV adder and a triple DC offset source.
On the right cabs side of row six are, first, more CV processing (SISM, Quad VCA, and a Doepfer Morph Controller), but then the rest of the row is taken up with what could be termed 'master' filters for overall timbral processing. The last of these is a Frap Fumana, which allows complex vocoder processing of synth audio; a Thonk version of a Doepfer A-119 (not in production just yet) is next to the Fumana for inputting external audio as well as envelope following and gate extraction from signal dynamics.
Row seven is the angled row in the Monster Case Bases. On the left is the MIDI interface, an Expert Sleepers FH-1 plus two expanders for a total of 24 CV/gate outputs from this. This was chosen so that any USB-capable MIDI controller can be plugged directly into the system, but it is also possible to use an external MIDI box to send computer-sequenced MIDI into the system. The next several modules are all for the purpose of generating time modulation in various ways. Three different sequential switches are next, all of slightly different types and usages. Quantizing and similar functions are after this, with two o&C builds plus an Instruo Sinfonion for polyphonic quantizing and harmony generation. Naturally, all of these devices are intended to work either separately or in tandem functions.
The right cabs side of row seven is audio processing: dynamics, frequency-shifting, delays, a Doepfer A-101-3 modular phaser, a Juno-106 chorus clone and an Elby digital reverb, with these last two being mono-to-stereo capable. A Rainmaker delay and Jomox T-Rackonzier close this out with complex effect processing, and the output module is at the far right, keeping the external cable draping similar to that found on the left side.
Row eight is the MCBs' 'flat' row. A complex master clock is here, which can also take clocking from the FH-1 or can also be CV controlled for time modulation. Then sequencers: one traditional 'row' type, and two multichannel Eloquencers. Right side has controllers first: ribbon controller interface, three assignable CV fader controls, two joysticks. The ultimate 'controller', however, occupies the rest of the row; this is a full ADDAC VC mixer system, with three AUX busses, CV control over dynamics and panning as well as numerous other functions.
This system, as I noted, is intended for use with an external controller, with either CV/gate or USB being acceptable input methods for control signals. Controller should optimally be placed in proximity to the mixer and ancillary control modules.
Current needed for the whole system is 12051 mA on +12, 8066 mA on -12, and 181 mA on 5V, which should be within the distributed supply capacities of all six cabs with Doepfer PSU-3 supplies. Total module expenditure estimate by MG is $47,655.00.
That was fun...
Indeed and Elektron gear holds a special place in my heart even though some Eurorack snobs scoff at using it as being digital and not full of knobs and dials and wires. I have been having the time of my life mixing the modular world with the digital world of Elektron and Make Noise- they really do pair quite well together for those with tight small studios!
I can now sketch out ideas quickly in an organic way with hardware versus a computer DAW. Then upload and remix/remaster in the DAW like Cubase for consumption and send to my Elektron Octatrack for live performances.
Off topic but related to sequencers/samplers-
Why the heck is the Cirklon sequencer so darn expensive and in demand? It is sold out now and twice as much as Elektron gear. Same for the Social Entropy modular sequencer!
Right...and remember, the real use of a piece of equipment is what YOU get out of it. There's a few things in my studio that people puzzle over and wonder why I have them alongside some seemingly-more-capable gear. But these also have their uses; my CZ-101 is far more capable than its toy-like appearance suggests. The Kawai K1ii normally sucks...unless you have Kawai's MM16 MIDI mixer/faderbox, which I do and which allows me to get at the K1ii's insides very easily and in real-time. And the Yamaha VSS-30...well, technically, it's a toy. An evil toy, as its crap-fi sampler has all sorts of sound-modification tricks for gritty, screwed-up noisemaking possibilities, particularly after running it through both sides of my dual ProCo RAT rack.
Most 'pro users' would scoff at these things (except maybe the CZ-101...some people do 'get' that synth). But it's a case of putting the 'wrong' gear in the 'right' hands. It reminds me a lot of the Discordian principle of the 'Law of Fives', which states: "Anything can ultimately be related to the number 5, given the ingenuity of the person doing the relating". Same principle applies here; it's just straight-up thinking outside the box at work.
Also takes a degree of fearlessness. Going out on stage, surrounded with high-end synths, but twiddling around with a Nintendo DS that just happens to be making surreal layers of sound...yes, that looks very odd. But the results bear out the oddness.
I had a better idea, I think. Since the purpose of this skiff is to integrate it within your DAW's environment, I figured why not take that all the way? Hence:
Certain things may seem to be missing. Trust me, they're not. The idea here is to put part of the skiff in the computer, which also simplifies your patch recall issues.
The key to this is the three Expert Sleepers modules. On the left is an ES-8 DC-coupled USB audio interface and an expander for it. The right end has a ES-4 CV-ADAT interface, which is basically a six-channel DC-coupled Lightpipe audio input. These all work together with Logic and a piece of software called 'Silent Way', although you could also use MOTU's Volta and a few other. The idea is this: the ES-8 and its expander can output both CVs and audio, which can go through the skiff's modules for control and audio processing purposes. There's 16 channels for all of this, plus the ES-8 also has four inputs. Signal flow goes through the skiff's various possible signal paths, down to the ES-4, where audio can be converted to ADAT format, sent back to the ES-8's Lightpipe input and potentially added to the ES-8's four inputs, and the whole mess connects to the computer for all of this I/O work through a single USB cable.
In between: six envelopes (4 AR, 2 ADSR with normal and inverted outs), five VCOs (the four Klavis VCOs also have internal quantizing), wavefolder, ring modulator, Quad VCA for summing VCOs and so forth. Then a formant-based Mannequins Sisters VCF (which has two input possibilities). This feeds two Lxd lowpass gates, which are 'rung' by a Doepfer Quad Decay. Your Lxd outs go directly into the ES-4 from there, and back to the DAW.
It's an odd implementation, and while it seems to lack sequencing, LFOs, and a lot of other things...well, that's what the ES-8 and the CV control software (Silent Way or some other) are for. That way, you can have loads of modulation sources, control voltages, etc in the DAW itself (and therefore easily stored and recalled) while your audio signal path remains analog and very tweakable in between the Expert Sleepers devices. In short, very tight DAW integration, and partial patch storage to boot!
I suggest taking a very careful look at Expert Sleepers' website (http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk) to get a better feel for how this should work. But the concept is quite solid.
I actually think the use of the Little Nerd in v.2 of the rack makes more sense. It has a lot of the Pamelas' capabilities, plus a few extra tricks, but occupies less space and it's more cost-effective. If this version of the rack is the direction to go in, the only change I'd think might be in order is to remove the Moddemix (the Wogglebug has a ring-mod mode, and the Erica mixer takes care of summing), then drop in a 4 hp multi-drum module that does more conventional rhythmic station-keeping while using the NE Pilobolus Vomitorium Excelsior as the source for screwy percussives to contrast with the more normal ones. In that 4 hp range, janost has a number of short-run clones of 4-8 voices of classic stuff, like 606 and 808 modules, an Oberheim DMX-based module, and a few other bits of trickery. Plus, by going with a 4 hp drum module of that type, you have 2 hp left...which is perfect for dropping in a 2hp dual VCA module, which you really need. VCAs are sorely lacking in this build, but that may well solve the issue and give you a final version of the skiff.
Just make sure to have a few good sequencers and samplers! You can get Eurorack modular samplers/sequencers- I like the ones made by Make Noise. Also look at the Kilpatrick Audio Carbon sequencer and Squarp Pyramid. Lot of folks overlook this area in passion of fancy VCO and LFO modules and synthesizers!
I would get a Buchla Skylab, Elby Serge, Make Noise Shared Black and Gold System, Doepfer A100 system
and Moog Model 15 modular for that wall of Eurorack sound and have plenty of cash left over for custom add on modules.
For example:
https://buchla.com/product/200e-system-4-skylab/
See what Buchla can do:
See what Serge can do
http://www.makenoisemusic.com/synthesizers/shared-system
ANY modular can do arpegiators that is basic thing anything can do that has a sequencer. You also want a good sampler.
Oh and don't forget to get a keyboard controller while you are at it. I like the Korg MS 20.
The Serge, Buchla, Make Noise, and Moog modular will have all that you need. I think it would be wise to find a modular store to visit and try gear out before spending cash. Join a local music group and make friends with modular gear. That helped me a lot and I am still treading cautiously since I don't have tons to blow on the wrong gear.
Also are you planning to play live at all? You probably also want a lunchbox portable setup as well.
Here is what you can do JUST with the MS-20 and Make Noise Shared System:
It can make some killer drums without a drum module too.
Thank you, this will come in handy. Home work! :D
Hello Lugia.
Thank you for making that a finnished build for the tip top mantis case.
You have helped me to understand a little more now, I see now that the sequenser i chose is mostly used for drums and maby a base line. and i have too little room to do much more, I will build this and learn how to use it, you gave me alot of good information that will help me to grow.
I understand the signal path a little better now, thanks to you. I will keep the audio interface for future build, i know i will need another bigger case soon. The module for adding fx, i will keep just for that bigger case too.
But if i get hold of all the modules you added i will make it so. This will give me a good box for making analog groove.
Thanks for the mixer ideas. Will order them for this build.
The Roland TR-8S is nice, i can get that one, but i also want to check out the kicks in euro-rack format, i have never seen a eurorack wall in real life. so i dont know the sound yet. but i hope it will amaze me.
If you got time to tell me more about what i can do to make another more insane system, another more interesting system with another more interesting Sequenser, and what other option i have with the eurorack format, I dont mind if there is 300 cables to manage. I want to dive in on the deep end. I am able to spend 50k on this over time, and then some more, but i will invest in getting more understanding first so i dont end up with to many modules i dont need. I will make one step at a time. I dont mind if the modules are complicated with many menus.
So if you want to build a Pittsburgh Modular Structure EP-420 Desktop kabinett size system on this site and explain it to me more in depth i would be forever happy! And thank you again for taking time to enlightening me!
I find all of these interesting :D Verbos Electronics , Rossum electro- music modules, Gatestorm Steady state fate, Pitsburg modular, Endorphin.es, Orthogonal devices! ER-301 makes me drool.
And to have functions for making vocal changed in any way shape and form, to resample them.
I might be asking alot haha. But music is what i use my life on. I am not taking money with me in heaven, so i might as well use them for sound creation now that i am here.
What modules is good for making Arpeggiators and simmilar task´s like that ?
Best Regards from Exigen.
Sure thing Exigen! I am sure that our resident expert Lugia will chime in as well with his thoughts. Have you considered getting the Microbrute 2s package that has the Arturia Microbrute plus case/power supply? That would be great way to go and you can add a few modules slowly and see what works for you. Modular drums are EXPENSIVE!
The Phenol and other kits are nice and affordable before launch into a full 50k setup. My buddy has such a wall but it set him back a small fortune! Plus he has tons of other gear that he bought that he never uses now.
Hello Mixxalot, thank you for the advices, The Tanzabar looks nice. and been considering a packaged modular system.
I have now taken a look at the Modulor 114 and Phenol systems. I am sure they are nice for a start. But i am 100% sure this is something i want to do, to build a big system. The Mantis case from tip top i feel already is too small, but i will keep it for portable use. I am thinking to build a case on the size of, Pittsburgh Modular Structure EP-420 Desktop kabinett, and i like the Doepfer 100 monster cases.
I want to have a full wall. so i have more options in the future for designing unique sounds, regardless of cost.
I intend to go all in, and expand for the next 40 years or more, as long as i live and are able to be creative.
I allready want more Sequenser options.
Thank you for answering me :D
i did not know about the machines you mentioned.
We have zoom function in Rack View for single modules. And a corresponding shortcut.
Hover over a module and press z to zoom. The idea came from joem in the MG thread on Muffwiggler.
Beep, Bopp, Bleep: info@modulargrid.net
Modular funtime! Mainly based on the Rings easter egg (love that formant filter) and Warps. Korg Electribe 2 are on drums, Minilogue on bass and Fabfilter Twin 2 makes the melodies that enter after a while.
Idea is (for now at least) to be integrated into Logic X for texture building and melodic stuff.
Aiming for sound design flexibility and also on the simpler side since a decent piece of my composing work is having to do rewrites...I know it'll be a task to recall stuff, but I don't want it to be a complete nightmare.
So, specific questions would be, is the 2hp midi enough to run a basic rack through Logic and have some flexibility annnnnnd are there any other modules you might throw in there that are a little left field that would be fun sound design tools with whats already in there.
General suggestions on anything else welcome as well
I played with an MS-20 and SH-101 yesterday and loved the MS-20 but the SH-101 was too small for my fat fingers.
First of dude thanks for the input. Nail on head as far as space, as far as room I had thought of 2 rows.
What would you do with the free 4hp. one of those 2hp strum and a utility?
Møffenzeef Dialup looks cool and your right about the mixer.
live tool, effect are ok, add some distortion think you can get some character its a cool little mixer, Aux's are a bit noisey but to me thats not a problem. I had thought of replacing the pam with aLittle nerdy? gota wait for one.
whats your thoughts on digital mixers?
The Lyra-8 is a pure joy. I send it straight through a wobbly Waldorf 2-pole so I can gate/or mod the env/cut/gate of the 2-pole. Lyra as I'm sure you know has 2 envelopes. slow and slowerr..
Dude thanks for the thoughts, nothing is set yet apart from the skiff and the Jomox.
This could be another possibility
https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_650962.jpg
Brilliant design, this...concept is very sound, you have a really clear idea of how this should work for your purposes. Pretty cool, pretty neat.
About the only things that nag at me are:
1) The Cwejman VCF. Spendy and large. You might want to do a bit more looking around to reduce the size and certainly the cost. There's a lot of interestingly fubar filter concepts and topologies out right now, so it's sort of a smorgasbrod, but yeah, this could be a bit better.
2) Putting the Mescaline in the rack with everything else. I kinda like this instrument as the unitized control-surface/generator/mangler it is in of itself, both in functional terms and looks. Plus, there's the possibility of more space to play with in the cab...and at the very least, you'll want to add some other Folktek stuff to tandem with the Mescaline as well as to augment it, plus go from Dupont pins to 3.5mms. My instinct would be to put the reassembled Mescaline to the right of the cab, then run your other Folktek stuff in the right end of the cab on rows 2 and 3 to get some easy patching and interchange between everything pin-patchable. That sort of exchange might also come in handy for adding one or two other pin-patchables, such as Bastl's Softpop or bitRanger.
Otherwise...yeah. This is damn solid.
The problem I see here is that this is all happening in a pretty small space. The Phonogene swap: good. The Jomox addition: also good. But then, there's the issue of how to cram in enough percussives into the remaining space. One thing I would do is to yank the mult as well, and rely on inline mults and/or stackable cables to split outputs. That gets 4 hp back, but the result still only leaves 14 hp for this, and the Pamela's can deal with eight trigger-ins. True, a few of these can go to the 0-Coast and Pitt, but you still need something percussive and, presumably, glitchy to get things moving.
Instead of just the Noise Eng. Fettucinius Marsala Lorem Ipso, I suggest adding one other nasty percussive in the same realm: a Møffenzeef Dialup. When you see the desc on it, you'll get the point. Fits nice with the NE Colosseum Autostrada Eruptum.
One other thing that is a little itchy for me, also, is the mixer. That little A&H is getting pretty close to being overrun, sounds like. If you get a wild hair to go to a larger mixer, I would suggest also trying to find something without onboard effects. There's a couple of reasons for this: first, those onboards are not very tweakable, so not only are they not too finely-adjustable, you can't play them...your Lyra-8 should explain what I mean there. Second, they're not exactly the best things; they tend to not be the best quality in sonic terms, plus they lack a lot of character, since they're designed to please a wide user base and not merely electronic music types who will also want the processing to be part of the overall creative process. And last, they muck up one or two AUX sends in terms of the mixer being built to use them, instead of being structured to deal with external processors.
Have a look at eBay at some point, and you'll find that there's a lot of very suitable, higher-quality, and bigger mixing desks on the used market right now, while people are jumping the analog ship for digital. This was dumb with synths, as we know, and it's just as dumb with most anything else. Take advantage of this and get some sweet dimes-on-the-dollar action!
I bought a Erica Synths Midi Clock v2 from @Phaelam and have nothing but good things to say:
-Shipped damn near immediately, arrived 2 days after payment
-Timely and responsive communication
-Good deal
-Great packaging- Double boxed, double bubble-wrapped
-Module in exceptional condition, like new
Don't hesitate - 5 stars. Top marks. Top gear. 10/10. Gets the stamp. Approved.
Hello folks; just want to confirm if this will work how i think it will work ;) Already started collectin'.
Here is the baby: 
I'm already in process of DIY'ng the case. Power will be multiple L-1s
There are basically 3 main sections of this -
Soundscape - Mescaline + OB + rainmaker + Alters - this will be my soundscape pads/background progressing drones etc.
Drums - NE modules + Mescaline's matter driven via pair of 101-102 (for main perc stuff) + Sapel/Turing in controlled random percentage.
Melody/Music - Sinfonion as global control of pitches/progressions. Mangroves into natural gates with quad modcan envelope into chord progression of sinfonion. 2x 301 in stereo 4 individual voices. Sequenced via 2nd pair of 101-102.
Modulation - 16 outs from ipad with lemur via shuttle control, 12 from 2x cv trinity, 8 from 2x o_c.
Control - frames, planar, sinfonion, ipad, channel, and NE corssfader are all playable live.
Pam's the master clock.
Why no VCAs? - 301 has integrated vca. Mangrove Air is a VCA, Natural Gate is a VCA. I'll mostly run my modulation as automations/Lfos/FM and for some crucial stuff i can push it out of Lemur.
Mixer will be external. Did i miss anything super crucial :) ?
Hello everyone,
New to the site and was seeking some feedback on a Make noise skiff I have been planning. Its based on the the system Concrète, replacing the Phonogene with a Morphagene, the MMG with the Jomox T-Rackonizer and adding the Loquelic Iteritas + Pamela's NEW Workout for mostly rhythmic percussive noise elements.
My current home set-up consists of a 0-coast, Pittsburgh modular sv-1 Blackbox, Digitakt, Lyra-8, which all travel through a
Allen & Heath ZED10FX Mixer.
I'm thinking of the new rack as a standalone sound design tool but also integration with my current semi-mod gear.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_647217.jpg
I bought from @robver , @bj_gzp and @Nuuttipukki
All reliable and friendly chaps! Recommended!
OK...so, apparently, we have these posted here now. Not surprising, given that MG is the de facto modular synth database for all intents and purposes these days.
The problem I have, however, is this: is this real, or is this Uli Behringer teasing something in order to get the Internet to do his market feasibility study for him?
I'm not going to mince words here: I have serious misgivings about this entry into Eurorack by, as per Behringer's usual modus operandi, doing a significant intellectual property lift and touting it as 'innovation'. And perhaps, yes, the ability to get these pretty decent looking System 100m clones at $100 a pop is an 'innovation' of sorts. But when, exactly, will we get them? That's the question. Or even moreso, will we get them, or is this just another hype ramp-up, winding up the synth public up while having a larf and going off to build more substandard MI gear and plundering another saged audio firm.
Case in point: the Model D. It's just started shipping...finally...about effing time, actually...after how many years of wind-up? And why was that, actually? After all, cloning a Minimoog shouldn't be all that difficult with a modern-day robotic board production line. Bob did it with actual workers and such, and built over 10k of them, and they're still making th...oh...wait. Yeah. They're still making them. Might be a tiny, wee, itsy-bitsy IP issue there. Ya think?
Fact is, I have memories of the very first major stink Behringer stepped in, waaaaaay back around the early 1990s. Wasn't smart to clone dbx's gear that they still made. Even less intelligent to reproduce the same manuals. But really frickin' stupid to forget to proofread them and delete all of the references to 'dbx' that got left in (and brought up in court).
If they can do this and make it work, and do this with the same component quality and QC that Roland put into these back in the day, OK. But at $100 per complex module (these ain't something basic, folks...ask Malekko, who did the builds on the System 500 modules in cooperation with Roland), I'm just thinking that certain corners might get cut a tad.
Some will likely disagree, but I have a not-too-good feeling about this.
PS: interesting about how Behringer's been hyping the Neutron...but when you look at Sweetwater's website (probably the prime Internet retailer for music gear in the USA), you see zilch about it. Nothing. Not even a preorder or cursory mention or jack-else. And they did do a lot of pre-hype and pre-order for the Model D, but my bet is that they kinda had a bad taste left in their mouths in Ft. Wayne after B. couldn't deliver for nigh-upon two years for...whatever reason. About which I, of course, have my suspicions as noted above. But if Sweetwater felt kinda burned about being made to hold Behringer's water for that long, I don't think they'll bite on the Neutron until Uli can dropship a few pallet-loads of them first. And that, gang, makes them potentially even less jazzed about thirteen new Behringer twiddlys being amped-up by Uli's 'Tribe', especially something more niche-like such as Eurorack modules.
Quite honestly, this has a slight potential of putting Sweetwater off Eurorack; they've only recently gotten a clue about it (I recall having a discussion with a sales engineer about why SW just might want to stock multiples about 18-19 months back; they had no clue about why anyone would want a bunch of jacks with no electronics attached to them), and if Uli causes some sort of debacle with them over Eurorack, there will be ripple-effects. Guarantee it.
So, Uli...if you're reading this, either do this right, or don't do it at all.
Wanted to see if anyone has looked at the Arturia Microbrute 2S package vs the Korg MS20 package for moving into modular builds. I like that for 1k you get a rack/power supply, kick ass synth/sequencer in the Microbrute 2s and patch options to connect to Eurorack modules. But the MS 20 is recommended a lot here as well.
Thoughts? I figure can add some exotic VCA/VCO/VCF, clock, slew utilities and couple exotic LFO or synths to the rack.
Ok so I had a chance to finally get my hands on an MS-20 and love it! I had a blast patching it recently. Not crazy about the Microbrute and since I have a Korg SQ-1 for sequencing my Make Noise 0-coast, the MS-20 is on my radar as an affordable patcheable synth to use.
I did find that you need to have the English Tear Module to use for CV between the MS-20 and Eurorack.
Also look at the MFB Tanzbar line- these to me sound amazing for EDM and house/techno drums. I have a Volca Beats and using a friends Elektron MD but rather than buy expensive modular drums have been looking at a Tanzbar unit down the road.
I would rather have something like the MFB Tanzbar or MFB Tanzbar lite than the Roland TR machines but that is just my preference.
Not enough 'sex appeal', I suppose. It's sort of plain-looking, doesn't jump out at you, isn't festooned with knobs and jacks and lights...none of which, frankly, it needs anyway. And really, I'd rather have a rackful of sleepy-looking stuff that can tear peoples' heads clean off instead of some sort of control-panel acid nightmare/fever dream that looks great but sounds....eh.
[Attempt #2...god, I love what accidental keystrokes can do in Windows. Feh.]
OK...some things were removed, notably the Audio Interface. It doesn't work like you think it does. It's just an analog stereo out (which you have already) and a stereo in (for which you don't have the space in this to process incoming audio). I also took out the effect insert module; again, it's not going to be that useful, plus I added some effects (notably a Juno 106 chorus clone) to better suit this build.
I shifted things into their respective signal paths, also. The 'monosynth' is up top, 'drum machine' is down so you can easily access the sequencer like a playing surface and get at the knobs for on-the-fly tweaking.
As for the 'monosynth', there's now two VCOs. Running just one often results in a thinner sound, but with two, you can do some slight detuning and generate that big, harmonic-sweeping sound for heavy bass. One can also sync with the other for weird lead timbres, too. I set up the modulation section so that the Disting is in position for multiple usages, and Maths provides control curves for the two VCAs, through which you can feed two different waveforms from the LFO. By doing that, you can cause things like delayed LFOs, LFOs that rise in amplitude over time, etc. Added a pair of AR envelopes for the VCF and its internal VCA...that module is a Moog Rogue VCF/VCA clone of sorts. I went with that because it's going to be a bit dirtier, which will punch the monosynth signal out better.
'Drum machine' is the Circadian Rhythms, then there's a passive mult to allow you to distribute a pair of triggers to other points in the build. Drum modules are an 808 and 909 kick (more BOOOOOM), a Delptronics module + expander which has some 606 and 808 characteristics, 909 clap, 808 maraca, and 909 hats and cymbals.
After that, there's a submix for six of the drum modules. Yes, there's more than six, I know...but certain ones you can run through this stereo submixer, then mash via the MSCL stereo comp/limiter and pound the HELL out of the sound that way, while still sending a couple of other drums, plus the monosynth's VCA output, through the main mixer up top. The 106 Chorus can then either be used as an inline effect for the monosynth or a mono drum voice before mixing that into the other stereo input on the main mixer. The first stereo in, of course, is where you'll want the drum submix (and MSCL, if desired) fed.
Yes, the main mixer is possibly overspecced on inputs. Trust me, you want that. Anyway, just feed the stereo out from it to the Output, take your headphone feed and stereo line-outs from that, and that should do it.
It's a relatively simple build, mainly owing to space constraints. And frankly, before going all the way in on this (especially the drum part), you might want to take mixxalot's advice and look into some more prebuilt gear. I would suggest checking out the Roland TR-8S (the new one, not the original TR-8) for drums; by doing that instead of going with much of what's on the bottom row, you then open up a LOT of options for the modular which, with the Circadian Rhythms, you've kind of got 'locked' into a specific usage at present. Besides, the TR-8S samples, has the 808, 909, 606, and a few other Roland kits standard (no 'plug-outs'...ugh), multiple assignable outs, and works like the 909, more or less. And it's about $650-ish over here. There's a couple of other things that come to mind, too, such as the MS-20 Mini + SQ-1...one of Aphex's longtime mainstays. You might also consider losing the CS-1X...it's sort of 'vanilla', doesn't really rip through a mix very well, which is typical for Yamaha's analog modelers. Pads and such are OK with it...but other things do those as well or better, and more besides.
Have you considered a packaged modular system like the Phenol or Modulor 114 before dropping 50k into a full blown Eurorack to see if you like patching wires and can get it to work for your workflow?
I too lust after gear but started small with just a Make Noise 0-coast to see if patching is for me before blowing 10-50k in modular gear. You already have tons of gear so maybe a few small modules may work or small modular system like the Make Noise Black and Gold Shared System?
Sweet. I'll take a thorough read through this today and will post back thoughts & questions. Thanks for taking all the time!
It's only voted by 4 people. This means nothing.
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Yes, I would also like to know why the poor rating... AFAIK there is no difference in sound and function between the MK I and MK II. The MK I currently has 4.14 in rating...
I added the Intellijel audio interface2, and Intellijel uJack, that covers it so i can record in my daw and use headsett in the eurorack box, and now possible to use a 2nd headsett from Presonus mixer when working live. and headsett number 3 and 4 from apollo if needed when i record other music people in studio.
Thanks, now i am interested to find out what else i need to expand this world in the most interesting ways, for designing new original sounds.
Be it deep SUB bases that makes the ground shake, leads, pads, etc. Good modules that are generating sounds. this is what i look to add now, and more drums.
Good suggestions are welcome :D
Hello Lugia.
My rig is Mac, Apollo uad2, Logic X, Studio live 16.0.2 PreSonus, Roland MC-303 groovebox, Yamaha RM1x, Virus indigo access, Yamaha CS1x, Prophet-6 Sequential, Elektron Analoug Four, Digitak, Octatrack MK2, Mackie Big Knob, Speakers are Adam A77X, JBL, Bheringer, DJ gear is from Pioneer, vinyl, cd, mixer. I have a Shure SM85 Microphone. I use a Zoom H2 for sampling/recording as well.
I know how to use the equipment, i started from Commodore 64, Amiga 500 to make music, my first pure Techno machine was the Roland MC-303 in 7th grade.
Today i am 38 years turning 39 on april 24. On the 25 of april the items in the picture arrives, marking the start of my next 40 years of making Progressive! , Techno, Acid, Trance, House, Club music.
Artists that has inspired my music making are many, this are a few of them: Tony De Vit, Mac Zimms, Ricardo Ferri, Carl Cox, Silvio Ecomo, Umek, Mauro Picotto, Cari Lekebusch, Ben sims.
Recently i discovered Colin Benders in this Eurorack world.
And i strive always to have my own sound :)
I understand it has to sound good from me, and that the equipment is not everything.
But damn man, already for me before i have even one module! this is heaven and a candy store mixed with a toy store for me :D
I feel like 7th grade when i walked out of that store with a mc-303 in my hands, all over agein.. That kick sound is still the greatest, and i understand that euro rack is the way to go for me now that i can afford it.
Thank you for your reply, and any more inputt from you would be much welcomed! :D
Right...one key, I've found over many years, to making a synth behave like an instrument is that if specific aspects are grouped by their particular specialty (generator, modifier, controller, processor), then the flow around the instrument becomes clearer and more intuitive. This, in turn, changes up how you approach the instrument; instead of having function 'A' all over here and 'B' down that side or such, mingle everything together as far as playing function, but make it cohesive as far as actual functionality.
Another thing that will help here a lot is fixing the output stage. Right now, there's a couple of manual mono mixers, one of Intellijel's new sorta-stereo ones, and the output isolator itself. I really strongly suggest making the output some sort of stereo performance mixer, something that also allows VCA control over the strip levels at the very least, as well as panning if you can swing it. Shift the mono mixers to use as submixing into the final stereo strips. This way, the mixer becomes something of a playing surface, allowing you to better slot various instrumental signal paths within the cab into a cohesive stereo-out mix.
As for the AJH VCOs...one thing that will click that sound in even tighter is to get some sort of Moog CP3 clone. The CP3 circuit, if cloned properly, is actually not 100% clean; it introduces subtle nonlinearities into the outputted result that actually emphasizes certain euphonic partials. It's not distortion per se...and a bit difficult to describe unless you've ever gotten your hands on a Moog device with that particular mixer circuit (such as a modular, or the Minimoog).
Now that I've got a clearer idea of what's actually going on here, let's see...
[Had this all typed up, and MG logged me out in the time it too to write it up. But I have my own word-processor, so...take THAT, rotten, evil login script! Ha!]
OK...you will notice that there's definitely some things missing from your original build. I did tinker with this a good bit, but I kept your primary functionalities as you'd posted them pretty much intact, even improving on the ergonomics of them. The entire order of this got a lot of reworking, too...but it now has that 'subsystemic' flow that I think you'll find makes it all easier to program and play, especially with the module swaps.
Row 1 has your buffered mult and adder/mult to the far left, with the AJH glide/noise module there so that your can easily impose slewing on CVs as needed. Also, with that positioning, you can easily place the slew limiter into a CV path, then send that back to a mult and distribute it that way, giving you a couple of nice options. The Minimoog VCOs were dropped to three (which is like the real thing) and the CP3 clone from Manhattan was added. This now replicates the VCO-mixer part of the Minimoog signal path...and there's more coming about that, so keep reading.
Digital-type sources are on the right end, then the Mixup was paired with the Quad VCA so that there's a lot of possible mixing/VCA control routing options present, given that the PDO and Shapeshifter have multiple outputs and there may be different ways you'll want that working for different situations. Oh...and a mult. You needed a passive one.
Row 2 starts with modulation sources: one Disting, your o&Cs, Batumi, Maths, Quadra. I then added three Ladik ADSRs with normal and inverted outputs, which eliminated the need for the attenuverters and added three desperately-needed 4-stage EGs. An Intellijel uFold is next for waveshaping/distortion, but with CV control over waveshaping in up to three stages. Then a SE 5089 VCF...and this is the rest of the tale on the Minimoog signal path.
That filter is a pretty effective clone of the 4-pole Moog transistor ladder lowpass VCF. If you feed this directly from the CP3, you then have the actual Minimoog audio signal path, up to the final VCA. Because of this, you get the nonlinearities and euphonic...something...that the Minimoog proper tends to have. Mind you, Minimoogs had a lot of variation to them because of component tolerances and such...but this is now a pretty spot-on redux of that audio path, hence the ability to remove the fourth VCO. The two new components (especially that 5089 VCF) will more than make up for its absence.
Your Polaris is next...and now, you have two excellent VCFs of two 'flavors'. Quad VCA next to mix the VCF outs...or you can just as easily send them through the LxD, which I relocated right beside it. Or both...? At any rate, the Quad VCAs were also set up this way so that you could both use them as exponentials for audio level control or in linear mode for CV levels, and split out your mixing duties but have one or two VCAs left for linear work.
Row 3: the other Disting, placed here to work more with the quantizing modules. Your drum/bass modules come next, then a stereo mixer to sum these down and get a good stereo placement so the Bitbox has a nice stereo image to screw around with. Note that all of this is now directly over the sequencing/control section for easy routing.
Effects processing is next: looping delay and Z-DSP. This closes out that row...but notice, again, the placement: these processors are directly above the mixing/output section, again to make routing easier. Plus it allows for some routing options with ease that we'll get at in a bit.
Row 4 is control. MIDI interface, then the Pamela's, Eloquencer, Varigate and Bow Tie. The idea here is that, with things laid out like this, you can easily send in a sync clock via MIDI or USB, use that as a master, then the next several modules get to tamper with that incoming clock as needed, all in a nice line so that if you want to do some screwy things with that clock, it's easy to do. And as mentioned, the placement of all of these is right below the quants, drum and bass, and Bitbox so that all of your functionality of these things in tandem are right there, simple to route and use as a unitized whole. The Bow Tie was placed down on the end of this so that you can now easily use it either for routing CVs or audio, whatever you feel like. Plus, anything that needs to go to the VCOs can now just flow right up the left side of the cab, keeping those patchcables out of the way. Much cleaner.
The Triple VCA is in place so that you can use it to VCA submix a single strip going into the Toppobrillo Stereomix. That thing there is going to make a huge difference. It allows CV control over audio levels, panning, and AUX sends on four inputs, which also have some routing tricks such as a cue send. This also has a single AUX send (mono) and return (mono or stereo) loop, so it's possible to parallel-process part of the overall mix through quite a few things.
Your MSCL is next, to put it in place to easily dynamic-process the overall stereo mix. But since the new Happy Nerding OUT has two stereo inputs, you can do some parallel processing work with that, or send in a separate signal path, or...well, a lot of things. That aux stereo feed has a pan control to adjust the stereo image, but it's fixed-level. The main input, however, is variable, so you actually get to use that OUT as a final stereo summer, in addition to being stereo balanced outs, a headphone (1/4”) amp, and output-level metering.
So, yes...I yanked several modules out, some of which you'd mentioned but a few of which I felt were not really well-implemented, or could be done better in a smaller space (pulling the Malekko distorter in favor of the uFold, for example). Overall, though, the idea behind what I'd cut was to maximize what you'd described as the 'mission' for the build, and I think that you'll find that this arrangement actually makes it more intuitive for those, as well as suggestive of some other possibilities not really clearly shown in the original layout. But the main split here is to get the 'synthy' bits up top, and the 'controlly' bits down and all together on the lower tiers.
And given what the 'pulls' might bring on the used market, you might be able to do this for close to zero-extra. Or maybe even a little left over...I did come in at $432 less than your figure, after all!
Wow... thanks for your honest thoughts. I'll try to give more context on how I use it and my current issues with the rack. It's a real rack, btw... not just in ModularGrid. I built it up slowly over the past 2 years, but I feel lately like I've been driving in the wrong direction for a while.
I use the Eloquencer to sequence melodies/bass lines and sometimes drums, but I primarily sequence drums with the Varigate 8+. I sample various sounds from the rig into BitBox, which can take 16 trigger inputs. Sometimes I run 1 cable per channel from the VG8+ into the BitBox, and other times I run 1 channel into BowTie and then use random CV to route that to one of 8 channels on the BitBot. That's just drums/perc.
Yes, I do have a "phat" Minimoog clone building up in here with the AJH row. Call me nuts... I just love how they sound. That mixer has 3 inputs too, so sometimes I use it with the other VCOs.
The flow is intended to generally be sequencers on the left/bottom, then going from left to right / top to bottom, oscillators, filters, envelopes, and mixing. Are you suggesting rearranging them into clusters of self-contained mini-groups?
I don't really do ambient stuff, and so Telharmonic/Rings are probably the first 2 sound sources I'd give up in here. Maybe they'll make room for another filter.
My problem is that I hate to feel too constrained. I admit it's a bit of a hodgepodge, but I like to have options.
Your intuition is correct. In fact, I'm not even touching this one; you need to rip at least half (or more!) of the signal sources out, for starters. This isn't a big build, and there's a hodgepodge of ten oscillators of various sorts (that I see on first glance!). Then there's ten channels of CV/gate sequencing, and another FOURTEEN of just trig/gate. But at the same time, just two filters...? If the idea here is to create a 'phat' (which I pronounce 'pee-hat', myself; shows you what I think of the term) sound, there's other/better/cheaper ways to do that. Or if you're trying to do something West Coast and crossmodulate everything...again, other/better/cheaper ways exist.
Step back and take a few breaths. Delete this. Start over, and start smaller. You're trying to toss things that look/sound cool into a box with this and figure that that'll result in a usable instrument, and it just won't. Seriously, go back and study some others' racks (synthesists who know what they're doing, basically) and spend a bunch of time studying classic modular systems that are still classics to this day because they were done right decades ago. See how and why they work. Then start again, but either smaller or with a smaller palette of modules (Eurorack, or also perhaps MU), or both, and then grow toward something like this incrementally. Build it up in subsystems that make sense as groups of modules. Use that grouping to place things in a sensible flow pattern.
Admittedly, this seems like it's easy. And on MG, it is...which may be the sole flaw in Modulargrid. Otherwise, it's a brilliant resource, but you have to use the whole resource to get the real use out of it. It's not Legos with knobs and wires; there's a real point to how and why modular synths come out in the ways they do, both good and bad builds. And the latter can and should (because this is 'expensive shit', to quote Fela Kuti) be avoided.
Couple of things...
You say you have a studio rig. What's in it as far as instruments (ie: synths, drum machines, sequencers, etc) already? This is going to be a major key to what should go into a modular rig and will help determine what sort of focus the build needs to have.
Second: I hope you're not expecting that the equipment is the thing that will make the music work. Truth is, that's on you...not what gear is at your disposal. A modular of any workable size is a hefty expenditure, both in money to outlay for it and time spent in getting how you use it sorted out. You can have a Synthi 100 at your disposal because you had the $50-100k to drop on it...but if the talent needed to make that spendy thing really sing is lacking, that's not a wise purchase.
Last: there are a LOT of machines to 'make techno music with'. Fact is, the people who started all of this (the house guys in Chi, the Belleville 3) were working with crap they could afford from want-ads, used music shops, and pawn shops. That's what shaped how techno sounds to this day. If you don't have experience with electronic music gear on the basic levels, such as with older gear, patchables, etc and thinking starting with a modular is the 'big secret'...guess again. It would be like trying to go through driver's ed in a $500k Ferrari.
Just sayin'...
and....
a late but big thanks to another two good traders
@mopoco for gifting me a trigger man in great condition and kindly did he add some extra value.
@tumulishroomaroom for sending over here a verbos module, also in mint condition and at a very reasonable price.
I feel an unbalance in the (euro) Force. Too many oscillators? Not enough CV utilities? What would you change?
big thanks to @HomoSonoinVivo, sent over from france a good quality ultra random.
Hi i am new to this forum and new to Euro-rack, so bear with me if i do noob mistakes and ask silly questions :D
I did some research for the last 3-4 weeks, And this is now my first build, Just a humble start!
I want a machine to make techno music with in my studio, later on i can live play with it.
Got the Mantis case with green legs. later i will need a bigger case.
My Questions in my head now is, am i missing something important in this build now ?
Can i send the sound to my mixer now so i can record in my daw?
What should i prioritise to get next ? how to Expand this build for great techno music.
Any help is most welcome.
Hmmm...sometimes I even amaze me...OK, got the additional module expenditure down to $986, a $238 drop. And strangely, in the process I upped a bit of the functionality, although the initial build was a bit better fit, I thought. New version's in the same position in this thread, so have a look...but here's what was changed:
This version changes the extra VCO (Plaits) to a pair of more conventional VCOs, a Ladik and a Noise Reap uBermuda, which is a somewhat weird thing that can go into internal feedback behavior, sort of like sending a VCF into self-resonance. Went to a single VCA/mixer with those also.
Quad LFO was changed to a TAKAAB 3LFO, which offers two waveforms in a staggered timing setup. ADSRs are now Ladiks, both with normal and inverted outputs, plus I was able to squeeze in a dual AD Ladik to give you two more envelopes. I switched out the Ladik dual linear VCA for a Noise Reap pair. Eowave Poles now handles attenuation/CV/inversion, and the Tiptop Fold also offers a suboctave generator, which wasn't there before. Same sort of 4-pole transistor-ladder lowpass VCF, albeit Doepfer's version which loses the dual input mixing...but the Fold has that now, so nothing lost there.
So...yeah. Filled cab, again. Functionality a bit different and, like I said, upped a bit in a few ways. And closer to the $700-ish budget line you quoted.
As to what to get first...hmm, that's a puzzler. I sort of build things as a 'unitized' set of subsystems, which is how I'm used to modular gear working (and, for that matter, a lot of prebuilt stuff). My suggestion would be to just add along as you can, and if you can kick things down a little more with used purchases (there's loads of used modules out there if you look), then cool. Otherwise, the only other way to reliably knock things down further is to go with a bunch of DIY kit modules...which is an option if you're OK with some soldering and assembly, but otherwise, this is not too shabby.
Agree no rush as I am super busy getting up to speed with the Elektron and Nocoast gear. I will keep eyes out for a used deal on MS-20+SQ1
One last thing, and I don't mean to be picky but since I have your attention...if there are any cheaper alternatives to what you posted above, that'd be helpful to know. Thanks again!
Hi Lugia,
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond here. Much appreciated. If I could ask for one more favor...since I don't have that amount of money to spend on this right now, can you tell me which of the modules you added that can get me started. Maybe $800-$900 worth.
Thanks
Easy: start with the ES-8 and the Metropolis. That way, you can lock the Metropolis up to the DAW's sync clock, and the Metropolis is perfectly usable with the SE-02, which will allow you to start learning all of the tricks that sequencer has up its sleeve. I'd then fill out the bottom row as shown (and move the ES-8 into its place up top), allowing you to get used to the trigger sequencer, drum modules, and the performance mixer next. After that, any order that feels right should be just fine.
