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I generally agree with @Lugia's advice to avoid in-rack percussion, especially in smaller racks, and followed it myself for a long time. However, I got a good deal on EC + SS while filling my fourth 104hp row, and after working with that and external drum machines for a while (using a CV-to-MIDI module), I bought QD. This still may not be the right decision for you, but here are a few points in their favour. EC is very playable. Euclidean capability is relatively rare in standalone drum machines or sequencers, and even when it is present, it's unlikely to have a good UI. Pam's gives you the capability in-rack but I didn't consider it playable (it's fine for set-and-forget).

Unsurprisingly, QD works very well with EC, and is also quite playable on its own. With both EC and QD, you can do most of what you need in a straightforward manner, but for some functions, you will need to consult the manual to understand what the lights mean (often these are just configuration settings). QD can play your own samples (it comes with a good library) and it has the mini-Rings part of Plaits and, I suspect, the percussion models (or something very much like them). You also have Plaits and One in your proposed rack, but I would encourage you to instead consider for that space some of the more complex and unusual oscillators available, such as the new Bastl Pizza. QD also has a compressor and (as an Easter egg) a delay and reverb. You could eliminate the tiny 2-3hp effects modules, which are going to be a nuisance to work with. (If you don't think QD's effects plus Beads is sufficient, consider the 6hp FX Aid XL.)

Elevator Sound in the UK has it listed on preorder, and the manual is available from the VPME website.

You have a lot of nice modules here, with much scope for experimentation (even without A*B+C and Compare 2). About all I might suggest would be some attenuverters (3xMIA or similar). I think that, more than new acquisitions, you probably need to think of ways to shake up or freshen up your patching routine. Maybe focus on one or two modules at a time and really see what you can do with those at the centre, bringing in others for support as needed.

The mixer issue isn't so much digital vs analog as whether it can handle a hot signal, and I think most can. The Presonus Studio Live seems to have a gain control that can lower as much as -20dB, which should be enough (-13.5dB is what's needed). But I still think it's much easier to have an output module and not worry about any of this.

Your case is too small for the modules you have chosen (because you'll likely need more). You can do all right with a case of that size but it takes some experience to know what to choose for it, and even then, it will be limited.

I have both Befaco Out and Ferry and like them both. Yes, you can use Ferry's send as an output, or as Jim says above, just use your mixer or passive attenuators. But it is handy to have each of these modules. The 1/4" balanced outs/headphone and the cue feature on Out are all useful, while with Ferry you have to use adapter cables, but that lets Ferry be quite small. For the space these take up, the convenience wins for me. You have a number of much larger modules, and you might think carefully about each of those.

An example: let's say you've got four loops: 0:30, 0:27, 0:11, and 0:18. Start them at the same time, and then the next time those will line up in that way will be nearly 45 hours later (30 x 27 x 11 x 18 / 60 / 60 = one period of all loops). Pretty effective, really.

-- Lugia

The math is a bit off here: the least common multiple of 30, 27, 11, 18 is 5940, so the loops will repeat after 99 minutes (which is still pretty effective). Changing the lengths to 31, 29, 11, 19 will get you 52+ hours.

The least common multiple of two numbers is their product divided by their greatest common divisor. The greatest common divisor can be computed by Euclid's algorithm, probably the oldest recorded algorithm (circa 300 BC). Euclid's algorithm can be adapted to evenly distribute beats in a bar, leading to the Euclidean rhythms one hears about in the modular world.

• Delta-V vs Batumi in this case, I would be SO interested to have someone with experience weigh in with Pros and Cons on this one.
  -- NICU

I have both of these. There is some overlap, but they're not really comparable. Batumi provides lots of (possibly related) playable LFOs. Delta-V provides envelopes that can loop, slew, VCAs, and attenuators in a small space. It seems to me that Batumi is more useful in your proposed rack.

I like the DB-01 a lot; it's great fun all by itself. I don't think you need the Pexp-1 just for that; the DB-01 is based on a Eurorack module, and takes clock in (just a regular Pam's channel), as well as pitch, gate, and filter CV in. Its output is hot enough for Eurorack and doesn't need boosting, if you want to take the signal back into the rack. I don't have experience with the other things you mentioned, though people seem to like the Beebo a lot.

I will be there in end of May, so until then maybe I will be the boring guy asking lose and wrong questions, i'm trying not to spam anything.
-- warmofada

Don't worry about asking questions or about asking "wrong questions". You have some unique constraints, you are clearly thinking a lot about actual purchases and not just fantasizing, you are paying attention to what people are saying. I have not been to Perfect Circuit in person but from what I have read, they are helpful and honest.

A reasonable rule of thumb (not to be taken strictly) is one voice per row. I would count the Salmple as more than one voice, though it's hard to put a precise number to it. The Lizard VCO is another. Do you need more than that? If so, maybe consider the Noise Reap Paradox and the WMD C4RBN. I have read that Optomix is difficult to get hold of these days...

I have not used a Salmple but what I've read about it has been positive. You will eventually want a mixer but you have that in your Lizard system, eventually, so you shouldn't buy another one now. The Salmple has mixed pairs output and an all-mix output. You can set individual channel playback levels and put an AD envelope on. It will be a bit menu-divey so eventually you will want external mixing with knobs, but for a starting configuration I think it is all right. Pam's will provide enough modulation to start, also. Have you thought more about what "tactile" module you might like?

It's good that you have a local manufacturer that you can support and get advice from, but unfortunate that you still don't have the main components of your system. The shortages affecting them are worldwide, and even in the US, there is a fair amount of frustration over availability.

I think that each of your three possibilities is valid, but they are all quite different, and it's not going to be easy to choose between them (probably impossible for us, but even difficult for you). It's hard to know how to expand or augment a system when you don't have any experience with it to know what you might feel is lacking.

I also understand that this is a purchasing opportunity that you may not have again for a while. One way out of the bind could be to try to get some modules on this trip that you could start using immediately on returning home. That rules out (2). You could combine (1) and (3), by getting Pam's, a sample player, and something "tactile" (and, depending on budget, something more to support those). You could get some experience with those, and they would not be rendered superfluous by the Lizard system arriving.

You've said it yourself: put the SV-1b back in its case, because it's skewing your decisions, unless you commit to a larger case. If you don't, you risk saying to yourself six months from now, "Why did I let this push me around?".

I think ATN8 is going to be too small and fiddly (it may prove difficult to use in practice), and I would suggest separating attenuversion and mixing in your mind (but not necessarily in what you purchase, just don't make the combo a priority). Nearness is a start but mine took three months to arrive, be warned. You might consider Hyrlo and/or Doepfer A138s for mixing. There are lots of other possibilities. On the attenuversion side, 3xMIA, Frap Tools 321, and again many other possibilities.

If you're using the VB regularly, then stick with it until you can build a compelling argument otherwise.

I hope you're enjoying the Brenso. It's a lovely module.

Cold Mac is unobtainable new, and if you can find one used, you will pay a hefty premium. Probably best to figure out what you wanted most from it and find a substitute for that functionality. CVilization can do a lot but unless you use it daily, you'll need to keep the cheat sheet close at hand. One thing to remember is that any Versio module (including Desmodus) can be flashed with any of the other firmwares, and there is scope for user firmwares as well. Rings (and therefore Rangoon) also has alternate firmwares.

That's a good point. And it is possible to get a little more direct interaction with Pam's by appropriately configuring the CV inputs and driving them with a suitable utility – again requiring thinking and patching rather than just twisting knobs.

You're not going to find anything that covers all the functionality of Cold Mac in 8hp. But you have some of that functionality elsewhere, and you might not need other parts of it. Maybe go through the technical map (https://github.com/whimsicalraps/mannequins-technical-maps/blob/master/cold-mac/cold-mac.pdf) and see what you really wanted from it. Anything you replace it with will almost certainly be easier to learn and use.

Cold Mac is very hard to get hold of, and the two Buchla/Tiptop modules feel a little out of place to me, but overall it seems fine. It's a lot to get all at once, though. Maybe think about an incremental plan, giving you a chance to learn about modules a few at a time?

Pam's does Euclidean, but in a more set-and-forget way, so if you want playability, Euclidean Circles is a reasonable combo with Quad Drum / Qex. But it does take up space. You might think about the other wide modules here (Morphagene, Qpas, Maths) and consider alternatives. There's also a fair amount of overlap among O_c, CVilization, øchd, Sloths, and Wogglebug. It's not so much that one can be covered by the others, but that there's a lot of similar kinds of modulation here and not much to modulate. Jim has good advice on thinking about voices and their paths through a possible system. Try not to fill the case more than 3/4 full in any potential plan, to leave room for discovery and expansion.

You should keep the Neutron in its own case, giving you room for support modules which you will need.

How have you patched the Dot and the Black Sequencer? I don't have either, but I don't see a way of doing what you want to do with just these two modules. The BS expects a regular clock and has only one Gate In. With a VCA, you could drop out notes from the BS on low gate from the other Dot channel. Other sequencers would let you use a Dot channel as an irregular clock, but mostly only one channel, not two. It might make more sense to use the Dot separately on percussive voices, and the BS on melodic ones.

If you want to combine two or more audio signals, then, yes, you will need a mixer (perhaps more than one, depending on what you want to do), and there are many possibilities. The µJack is discontinued, but Intellijel makes the Outs module, and again there are other possibilities. I have personal experience with the ALM HPO and Befaco Out v3, and like both.

There are more modules you are likely to need, but it might be best to start using these while you keep doing research. Through use you may discover things you want to do and can look for ways to accomplish them.

does the 3xmia provide negative offsets as well?
-- fretless19

Yes, because each channel has an attenuverter, and each is normalized to an offset (I think +5V). So when you twist the knob for a channel with no input down below 12:00, you get a negative offset of your choice.

If input 2 is at C volts and window size is W volts, the output is high when input 1 is between C-W and C+W.

So for your first example, set input 2 to 4V and window size to 1V to get a range of 3V to 5V.

For your second example, set input 2 to 1.5V and window size to 1.5V to get a range of 0V to 3V (or adjust as needed if you want the range to start at a negative voltage).

EDITED Feb 15th 2022, 16:59

Some things to consider from my experience: 3xMIA for utility (if you can find one); Melotus Versio as an alternative to Arbhar (can be flashed with many different firmwares for other effects; smaller and cheaper); Batumi for playable LFOs; C4RBN for a small multimode filter with some character; Ikarie for a slightly larger filter with more character (and stereo possibilities); Ferry for outboard effects (there are some great pedals out there); HPO so you can easily listen standalone.

Can this be done with the Doepfer A-138o? I have only used it as an aux for modules in the past.
-- isolatediguana

I don't know if the A-138o (with the A-138p) has sufficient gain for external return. Doepfer's documentation is not very clear on this point. I suspect something like the A-119 Ext. In is needed.

I just ordered a Versio as well (Melotus, but I plan to flash Desmodus and Electus to try them out) but for more intrusive or modulated effects. If I want a quality blackhole or shimmer, I will still go to an external pedal.

Perhaps a send/return module like the knob.farm Ferry (4hp, $140) and a really good external pedal? If reverb is really important to you, I don't think in-rack effects match the quality of external ones yet, with the possible exception of the Strymon modules. If you have anything besides modular that you might also want to use effects with (other fixed-architecture synths, guitar, etc.) that tips the balance further.

Thanks for posting this. I recently got a regular one in the lottery. The sounds from yours are certainly in the same ballpark. I imagine a side-by-side comparison would reveal some subtle differences.

The YouTube videos can be misleading. It is possible to get wonderful sounds with a few modules. But one has to choose them carefully and connect them in particular ways. One doesn't want only one wonderful sound, but many different wonderful sounds, and that might require more than a few modules.

I don't have direct experience with any of your components. I don't think that you can do anything interesting with the VCA, the Seq, Clouds, and the mixer by themselves. They're not junk, but they wouldn't work in one of those videos, not by themselves. They can be used to enhance what the Neutron does, but only if you know how to use the Neutron. You can avoid the constant sound of the Neutron (changed only by turning the tuning knobs) by giving the oscillator some pitch information via MIDI. A keyboard would be the best learning tool for this. You can use a computer or tablet, but it is more complicated to set up.

The link below my messages is my write-up of one possible introduction to modular synthesis. It doesn't talk specifically about your devices, but the concepts are transferable. You can find sections on the Neutron that correspond to things I talk about, and see if you can duplicate the results. If it is not to your taste, there are many other such resources.

Why don't you start with just the Neutron, which is a self-contained semi-modular, so there are default connections made for you? There are some example patches in the manual that you can try reproducing and then altering. When you understand more about the functionality of the various parts, you will be able to introduce additional modules.

You might ask your Instagram friend the reasons for their choices and what they thought you would do with them. There are many Erica Synths Pico modules; you need to specify which one you have.

You can also use the Toolbox as a primitive envelope generator by patching your gate to the top input. The Time knob will control rise/fall. Can you can patch the output to the VCA CV and hear notes? If so, then it's back to the ADSR module. Is the cable connected the right way around? If so, you may need to talk to Pittsburgh Modular.

Good! Keep us posted.

This was my first time looking at the Dreadbox modules and their manuals, and I'm a little surprised at how sparse the documentation is. They're cheap and cheerful, but, for example, what exactly does the "Pulserizer" on the Utopia do? Perhaps the videos reveal all...

The Focusrite is a good interface, but I wouldn't be surprised if it can't handle high levels. I have a 2i2, but I don't use it with my modular. I have output modules, which you no longer have space for (you might have to sacrifice one of the Dreadboxes for one if the problem persists). INST mode is off, right? I would be happier without the stereo adapter. I think you need to disconnect everything, and then see what combinations of connections and power on/off result in the buzzing. Is the interface connected to anything else besides the modular? Is it plugged into the same power strip as the modular, or a different power source?

The pulse jack on Hysteria is an output, not an input. Look at the manual. That's why I told you to use the gate to trigger the ADSR envelope, and then use that envelope to control a VCA.

In the earlier thread, you were told to turn down everything as much as possible, either using a VCA from the modular or the input gain control on your audio interface. Eurorack voltages are higher than line audio, and some devices will have trouble with it. What audio interface are you using, how are the cables connected, and how is the power supplied to everything? What happens if you unplug the switched-off modular?

First of all, patch the out of Hysteria into whatever you are using to listen. See if you can get a drone that changes pitch when you play the KL. If not, pull the connection from that, and tune with the Oct slider.

When you can get a reasonable tone out of that, patch the out of Hysteria into the 1 input of Eudemonia. Turn the knob below it fully clockwise (up), and all the other knobs fully counterclockwise (down). The LP slider should be all the way up, the other sliders all the way down. Patch the out of Eudemonia to what you're listening to, and push the VCA slider up and down, and see if you hear that previous tone rise and fall in volume.

Next, patch the out of the ADSR into the VCA CV in of Eudemonia, and see if you can get the envelope (triggered by the KL) to do what you were doing with your fingers on the VCA slider. There you have a basic patch. Now you can play with the filter sliders on Eudemonia, the envelope settings on the ADSR, and the root pitch and waveforms on Hysteria. After that, you can start bringing in modulation.

EDITED Jan 29th 2022, 04:44

You've been working with this configuration for a month, right? What have you tried that did something you want to expand on? What have you tried that didn't work?

You can listen to the Hyrlo if you're careful about levels. I have one, but for convenience, I send its outputs to ALM HPO or Befaco Out v3. If you're happy with using the Mother-32 sequencer, that's fine also. Sequencers, whether in-rack or external, take a lot of research, and even then, it's hard to tell until you actually use one for a while.

This is enough to start with without frustrating you, even without the FX Aid. The pitch sequencing options on Pam's are relatively simple but work for exploration. When considering a complex oscillator (or even a simpler one), think about what kinds of modulation it might need, and how you plan to provide it.

Katowice does filtering but I don't think it is what you want for a case this small; it is a bit more specialized. Watch some demos of it and Ikarie and you will see the difference. How do you plan to sequence pitch? Pam's is somewhat limited in this respect. What other equipment do you plan to use (at a minimum, to listen to it)?

If you haven't bought any of this yet, I suggest that you write up the goals of your system, and go through the various categories of modules, asking yourself whether you need one in each category (or why you don't). You will probably come up with a final list of choices that is larger than this case. You might be tempted to get very small modules to squeeze them all in, but that may not be a good idea. Instead, consider a larger case.

they run into this problem over and over and over again
-- Ronin1973

You see it happening over and over again. Each of them is going through it for the first time. Teachers have to keep this in mind.

@LJRo, the Mordax Data is a good learning and debugging tool, but your case is too small for it. Even with it removed, your system is going to be limited and probably frustrating. If you stick with this case, you will at a minimum have to get rid of one of the larger modules. The better option is to think about a bigger case, and do some planning, with proper choices for envelopes or function generators, VCAs, and utility modules. You don't have to get it all at once; you can grow into it, if you choose judiciously.

I think this is almost exactly one of the modular set-ups from Ricky Tinez's videos and he does some pretty cool shit with it so you should be good
-- pestilent

If you have Ricky Tinez's experience and talent, and his supply of additional modules in a larger rig for when you chafe at the restrictions of a small setup...!

Agreed on the mults. Veils x2 might be overkill, consider replacing one with a 3xMIA or similar. You might want a quantizer.

I like Falistri a lot, but it's only slightly smaller than Maths, and more expensive, so hard to justify in a case this size with power constraints! Have you already bought the case and starter modules? If not, consider a Tiptop Mantis.

PS 850mA is low for 104hp, digital modules will eat into that. Remember that you need 20-25% overhead for startup surges! Also I have a number of Elektron boxes, so if you want to talk about integration, I might be able to help.

Been trying to figure out what I would be missing by going with the Delta-V. Mixer, attenuverters?

Yes, though 3xMIA or other modules can compensate. Also if you use the built-in VCAs in Delta-V, you have no access to the envelope. And you don't have the EOR/EOC outputs which in a larger rack can be a useful source of gates.

The "Maths illustrated supplement" illustrates how to do many tasks on Maths, but not why. That you have to ferret out for yourself. It is a little like learning by rote; some manage to go beyond, but many do not. In the link in my signature I try to take a more generalizable approach to that learning using another module (Falistri), in the hopes that the lessons should transfer to other modules such as Delta-V and Maths.

I have Pam's, it is terrific, and µO_c is on my watch list. I don't think you can go wrong with those. There is a choice of firmwares with µO_c. Hemisphere allows for two independent halves, but with a simpler set of functions. I am more tempted by the original firmware, which looks deeper. You don't have to choose except if your supplier asks which firmware you want loaded initially; you can reflash the module yourself.

EDITED Jan 6th 2022, 01:28

I personally would recommend Delta-V for a skiff this small, but others cannot imagine modular without Maths, so you have a decision to make. With the space you save, you can upgrade your uVCA to Veils 2020, and add 3xMIA, which is quite useful. You may not need S&H right away. If you get CV.OCD, you don't need mmMIDI.

Loopy Pro for iOS has just been released and looks very impressive. There are detailed threads on the Audiobus forum.

Sorry, I can't help you, as I've avoided drums in my rack, but I did want to take the opportunity to make the pun, "106hp beats that".

Instead of getting a smaller case and trying to cram in selected modules to achieve a specific effect, why don't you try "thinning" your rack by removing modules that you are underusing, or that intimidate you, or that are pushing you in directions you don't want? Put them in a drawer and see what you can do with the ones that remain. Repeat and swap as needed. That costs you nothing, you can get started in ten or fifteen minutes, and what you learn can inform future purchases (if any are needed).

I have a Digitakt. It is great fun. Even more useful than probability on a step (which it has) is the ability to say things like "2:5", meaning trigger on repetitions 2, 7, 12... You can use PRE or not-PRE conditions to link to previous events on the same track, NEI or not-NEI for neighbour tracks, to get longer conditional subsequences. With pattern length and tempo mult/div per track, you can create quite intricate and varied rhythms. And you get all this even with the entry-level Model:Samples.

There's no CV in, but I picked up a Befaco CV Thing for CV->MIDI, which works well with Pam's, Compare 2, and other sources of interesting gate sequences.

Have you considered an Elektron Digitakt or Octatrack?

Lugia's build is also more attractive, aesthetically. Enjoy your rack! Don't be afraid to plug it in, or in fact, to plug anything into anything else. Experimentation is part of the reason to go this route.