How to: unison detune with spread?

Hi folks,

A favorite sound of mine from vsts is unison stack detune with stereo spread. "Supersaw" is the most common version of this, but it can be done with many waveshapes.

How to do this in Eurorack? Lets say I've got a great timbre out of DPO (or ANY OSC) and I want to give that the thick fat wide supersaw stack detune spread sound?

Ladik Animator strikes me as a possibility but: might need 2 modules, no controls on it to tailor the sound, and wouldn't handle spatial spread. But worth considering ...

[edit, added] I should say, I'm still trying to figure out how to do unison stack detune with stereo spread for ANY waveform weather it originates in eurorack or DAW. So if you have VST-based suggestions I could add to a chain to "superX anything" I'm interested!

[edit, added] Last, I must add (if only for my benefit) yes this stack/detune/spread idea is somewhat similar to chorus, but not exactly. VSTs like Serum, Zebra2, Icarus2 give the ability to make almost any waveform into a "superX" version with stack unison detune and stereo spread. There you can control: # of unison voices, amount of detune, amount of stereo spread, level balance between original and added waves. I find these controls give me a LOT more control over a tone (vs. a chorus) and let me get a sound that has more density, more power, and more control of stereo spread than a normal chorus. Which is to say, yes I like chorus quite a lot, but IMO chorus is not a substitute for a good unison stack detune spread function.

... SO, any ideas? Module and patch suggestions and or VST suggestions appreciated!

Thanks, Nicholas

EDITED Sep 29th 2021, 23:02

AJH Wave Swarm?
The Acid Rain Chainsaw would be an oscillator solution that covers the detuned supersaw or supersquare very well.

EDITED Sep 29th 2021, 08:01

Thanks @farkas!

-- Chainsaw is something I've known about, but stayed away from, because I'm not just interested in supersaw/supersquare, but more interested in superXYZ where I could take ANY waveform and give it stack unison detune spread treatment

-- AJH Wave Swarm looks like maybe something I will end up getting. From what I've read so far, it seems similar to Ladik Animator except WaveSwarm has more control and 2 channels in one unit. Great suggestion!!! I'm going to dig into that one's lit/vids more!

-- I have to say, Ladik Animator at only ~$100 bucks is something I might just try BUT the 8hp not crazy deep units are out of stock and only the 4HP crazy deep units are available. Those 4HP units measure 125mm/4.9" deep which is more than my Doepfer case can take at its deepest (4.5"). BUT if anyone has and loves these Ladik units maybe I would try to get the 8hp (less deep) ones when available...

Any other ideas / comments? Thanks!

EDITED Sep 29th 2021, 23:36

Wow Wave Swarm looks cool, but why no CV control 🤔🤔🤔

I think the idea was to keep the Wave Swarm within the AJH 14hp footprint. CV over 12 LFOs would have made the module much larger, and might not have been all that musical with the clashing of the individually timed "beating" LFOs. More of a set it and forget it kind of module.

Reasonable explanation @farkas, but nonetheless I remain greedy for CV control over all things.

I know most modular artists want cv over everything. I’m finding I like a better hands on interface at the expense of cv control, which is probably why I’m such an AJH fan. I love that Dual Contour Generator so much. Even though I wish it had cv control over rise and fall I’m considering getting a second one.

Superstacking isn't an effect but a design.

A superstack doesn't start with one oscillator. You are stacking MANY oscillators. So you'd have to buy that many physical oscillators, mix them in a stereo spread, filter them in stereo, and modulate them with stereo VCAs (two mono VCAs).

The greatest advantage of modern digital computing the shear amount of DSP that can be generated to create crazy stacks of voices that would be prohibitively expensive in the analog world.

EDITED Sep 30th 2021, 16:39

@Ronin1973,

I hear you on the "superstacking isn't an effect but a design". But I want to unpack/examine that idea as there are some potentially important technical points for recreating this and similar effects.

If we say the goal is the sound of "unison stack detune with stereo spread" then I'm aware of 4 potential ways of getting this or close to it:

1. use a synth or OSC designed to do "superstacking" (as Ronin suggested). Lots of VSTs do this (or very close to it): Serum, Sylenth, Zebra2, Icarus2, etc. Some Eurorack OSCs do this: Chainsaw and a few others. Some hardware does it (Waldorf Quantum and others). One can do a basic version of this with any multi-OSC setup; Moog Model-D with its 3 OSCs slightly detuned sounds great.

2. use an Animator like AJH Wave Swarm or Ladik L-011 Animator. Ladik's text says "Think of it as VCO extension – exact tone tuning ensures your VCO and Animator creates 8 phase-shifted and endlessly moving waveshapes summed to Animator´s output. Sounds like 9 slightly detuned VCOs together, sounds simply FAT (8 shifted waves + 1 original from input). Contains 8 phase shifters drived by 8 LFOs at 8 different frequencies (34 opamps total)." SO, as far as I can tell, the "animator" technique is like mult (of original) plus phase shift, plus LFOs modulating phase shift at very slow rates. The Ladik module has no controls, the AJH module has gain controls and 2 channels (which would allow for stereo / spread effect).

3. use delay-based effects (chorus and similar). While I love chorus and use it a lot, I do not find the chorused sound or controls equivalent to the "unison stack detune with stereo spread" sound or controls. It is close-ish, but often not close enough. The "artificial double tracking" VSTS like Melda MUnison and Waves Reel ADT I am less familiar with, but my understanding is those are also delay-based, and I don't recall those giving a sound like technique #1 above either.

4. use a combination of 2&3 as found in Kilohearts Ensemble. That's the only VST I know of that gives a software implementation including technique #2 above.

So Ronin, I don't really disagree with your point above. BUT I am trying to answer essentially the question: can techniques #2 and/or #4 above produce a sound similar to that of technique #1, e.g. similar to genuine superstacking? OR is there some other great solution I don't know about yet?

Practically, I'm wondering, if I do a sound design session on my rack and come up with this complex OSC chain I'm loving, is there a practical way for me to get the "unison stack detune with stereo spread" version of that sound? I would blow my brains out if I had to try to get a slightly detuned version of a complex OSC chain in 3+ parallel Eurorack voices (e.g. try to manually do technique #1 in Eurorack). I'm hoping something from techniques 2,3,4 above could work. AJH Wave Swarm is top of the consideration set currently.

Thanks for your ideas everyone!!

EDITED Sep 30th 2021, 21:10

Hi Nickgreenberg,

The ACL - Sinfonion has a CV controllable Chaotic Detune function (and another Chaotic Note Shuffle function, CV controllable).

If I remember well then you can assign one of the potentiometers as a detune knob too. Download the ACL - Sinfonion manual and look for the details. Kind regards, Garfield.

Thanks @GarfieldModular. Sinofonion is one I've stayed away from for a few reasons. But I wasn't aware of the chaotic detune function on that. I'll take a closer look.

Net out so far is AJH Wave Swarm is likely the most suitable hardware option. Any other ideas on this? @Lugia, any ideas / comments?

Okay, so I ordered AJH Wave Swarm. Will let you know if this is great IMO or not.

In the meantime if there are further ideas (in addition to what's already above) I would be interested to hear!

Thanks, NG

Thanks @GarfieldModular. Sinofonion is one I've stayed away from for a few reasons. But I wasn't aware of the chaotic detune function on that. I'll take a closer look.
-- nickgreenberg

the sinfonion is a fantastic module, but to make the most of it you 4 or 5 sequencer channels, split over 2 sequencers modules - unless you can find a single sequencer with the ability to clock the channels separately, and a quite a few voices etc

Update: I added AJH Wave Swarm and Xaoc Minsk (stereo width & m/s FX) to my setup. Initial experiments leave me 60%+ satisfied as far as unison/stack/detune/spread goes; it's not getting me the super-stack sound I would get out of Serum BUT its a considerable step in the right direction. I'm wondering if I will be able to further "tune in" my setup and patches for a more satisfying result. Again the reason I'm using WS+Minsk is to be able to do this to ANY waveform (and not just rely on a supersaw module).

If ya'll have any further ideas / comments, I'll be interested to hear. Thanks!

... and after another longish session with this method (above) I would say it is good but not a panacea.

++It produces nice results on about 50% of the waveforms I feed it. It works best on saws and saw like things. On triangles and folded sines you end up hearing a kind of "swooshing noise" that is not so great. The more buckwild the waveform, the less likely it works with this technique so far.

++comparing this to my VSTs that do unison/stack/detune/spread like Serum and Icarus2, the VSTs get a more consistent result with various waveforms.

Net net, I currently think I'm getting a solid unison/stack/detune/spread result from modular using WS+Minsk, but i) the effect requires significant "dial in" efforts and ii) it doesn't work great on every type of waveform I'm throwing at it.

EDITED Nov 10th 2021, 02:44