Pros/Cons of Mixing In or Out of the Case

I am trying to set up my first Eurorack performance case and I am struggling with thinking about doing a final output mixer. I have been reading the Patch & Tweak [1] book and was surprised to see references to using external analog console/performance mixers. In the section on recording (p. 85) the authors use the Soundcraft Signature 12 MTK as an example and also make reference to the profile on Hataken and his use of the Roland MX-1 (p. 108-110).

The surprise is due to the fact that I have heard multiple mentions in the Why We Bleep [2] podcast that people using console mixers want to replace that functionality with something in the case. Additionally, even Hataken mentions that he would prefer to have a Eurorack mixer to take the place of the MX-1.

I am already aware that the audio signal levels are way hotter voltage-wise coming from Eurorack. However, my first set of questions are:

• Can you still plug directly from the last output in a Eurorack audio signal chain into an external analog mixer?
• Is it just a matter of making sure the mixer has analog gain level that can be turned way down or are people still using come kind of Eurorack module to convert the audio signal to line level before sending it to the external analog mixer?
• If this works, is it as simple as using a cable with 3.5mm on one end and 1/4" on the other?

My second question is just the more general one: does anyone see mixing outside a Eurorack case as more than just a total nuisance? The reason an analog mixer is so attractive is because mixing is A) super important, and B) something that seems hard to justify rack space to when I am working on my first case. For the former point, it would be nice to have some mix capabilities beyond just volume and panning. EQ and sidechaining, for example. On the latter point (B), consider that some of the performance mixers that get a lot of praise are things like the Befaco Hexmix with its Hexpander or the WMD Performance Mixer. But those would take up 40 HP (WMD) to 56 HP (Befaco). In addition to off-loading the rack space, those other mixers would be cheaper, too, which is a big consideration.

Finally, I'll also mention that I have been reading other comments here on MG in response to other first-timers [3] that when getting started it is unwise to ditch one's current gear [4]. I have a couple of Volcas and an old GM Yamaha keyboard that I'd like to integrate alongside the Eurorack. It seems this would be another area where the external mixer might shine.

Anyway, I'm just trying to take advantage of this great community and here from everyone's experience about the things you can't possibly know without experience. Thanks in advance.

Here's the references for any other new folks like me:

[1] https://www.pushturnmove.com/products/patch-tweak-exploring-modular-synthesis
[2] https://www.whywebleep.com/whywebleep/
[3] https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/2913
[4] https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/3022

Much of the problem has to do with the maximum headroom allowable on small mixers. Some of them are capable of being attenuated down to a level where they can handle typical audio levels coming off of a synthesizer. I've done this a few times with my Mackie 1202...but we're talking about a 25-year old original 1202, which was a bit of a different beast than the present-day Mackies. I've read some accounts of how the Allen & Heath ZED series is also capable of dealing with the high incoming levels, also.

Another alternative to an in-cab performance mixer that would allow you to route directly to an outboard mixer would be any of the various output modules. Since these are designed to step down the levels to line-level, a bank of several of these would also make for a cost-effective and space-saving option. Ladik has several options here that are worth examining, such as their P-530 dual output module which offers attentuation plus 1/4" outs that should interface easily with any outboard mixer you can think of. In 16 hp, you could have trimmable eight line outs for only $160. Frankly, that seems like the best option, leaving you free to use whichever mixer suits your performing needs.

I use a mackie 1202VLZ4. Straight from my modular to the channel inputs using a 3.5mm to 1/4" hosa cable. works perfectly, and I have never had any issues with levels.

I’m between worlds. I love my Mackie for general studio context but I really want to be able to take a balanced 1/4” stereo output straight into some other system and show up armed with only an Intellijel performance case...

The issue, as I see it, is upstream. Eurorack went from 1) being an implied monosynth to 2) being an awkward groovebox with clunky, expensive panning/mixing/sequencing/FX and some units like Clouds which are fully stereo, to 3) being an implied multi-voice studio-in-a-box but still struggling with the basics for a variety of reasons (some of them market-driven and not easily solvable).

The makers of the larger “performance mixer” modules have taken a slightly self-defeating approach: there is almost nothing “modular” about these units, and they make all sorts of assumptions about what users want to actually do. Even the makers of smaller “stereo mixers” such as Erica Synths—who I love I should say—have made some really curious assumptions about stereo placement. Why should only one channel be pannable and why only via CV?

To give you an example, my system is three voices. I don’t need four or even six channels, but I desperately want free panning and multiple stereo FX returns. I have no need for CV control over anything, and I prefer to mute CV rather than audio for cleanliness.

I prefer small modular solutions which are chainable or interact in some way to create the right solution for me. Intellijel’s Mixup was an excellent purchase for me because it gives me two mono channels and two stereo channels. I can rig up a dry mono voice (bass/kick), wet mono voice, dry stereo voice, and wet stereo voice in 6hp.

I really liked the look of Knob Farm’s Hyrlo and Ferry modules but was unable to purchase before they sold out. FX send in 6hp sounds right.

I would prefer to support small MODULAR solutions and create workarounds to the rest (ask me about my FX send woes some day lol) using attenuators, VCAs, mixers, and switches which are all stock eurorack components and always able to be repurposed, rather than invest in a massive thing that won’t always suit me. That was why I got into this.

Good luck and have fun!

EDITED Jan 2nd 2019, 18:20

You need both for different purposes. I have a bunch of different mixers/VCAs for both cv and audio in my modular, and I have a Tascam Model 24 on the way that will allow me to fine tune final outs, and record many different outs into an SD card all on their own track to then put into Logic later. People who think you can just plug modular stuff straight into an audio interface without any drawbacks are smoking something; even audio out interfaces within eurorack can be quite different--my Vermona TAI-4 has transformers for both in and out that make a sort of pleasing saturation that make the exact same sound source sound better when I output it compared to more generic output modules (or none at all).

EDITED Jan 3rd 2019, 02:25

Pardon my ignorance, but how does the output of a modular setup differ from the output of a normal hardware monosynth? People have been plugging those straight into audio interfaces in home studios for as long as digital conversion has been with us, and you just watch your levels since its obviously much hotter than other sources (like a dynamic microphone or a bass guitar).
Some electronic artists even run their synths thru outboard preamps just for punch / warmth / grit in the studio, even though amplification is not needed and that could probably compound the problem of a really hot signal.

EDITED Jan 3rd 2019, 15:14

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59409&sid=fa9ea50d3418cf3b5b6fb0df1ebdbf84

Not to pick a fight but this reads like the Frap CGM doesn't exist... It is the archetypal modular mixer and top quality, too!

[...]

The makers of the larger “performance mixer” modules have taken a slightly self-defeating approach: there is almost nothing “modular” about these units, and they make all sorts of assumptions about what users want to actually do. Even the makers of smaller “stereo mixers” such as Erica Synths—who I love I should say—have made some really curious assumptions about stereo placement. Why should only one channel be pannable and why only via CV?

To give you an example, my system is three voices. I don’t need four or even six channels, but I desperately want free panning and multiple stereo FX returns. I have no need for CV control over anything, and I prefer to mute CV rather than audio for cleanliness.

I prefer small modular solutions which are chainable or interact in some way to create the right solution for me. Intellijel’s Mixup was an excellent purchase for me because it gives me two mono channels and two stereo channels. I can rig up a dry mono voice (bass/kick), wet mono voice, dry stereo voice, and wet stereo voice in 6hp.

I really liked the look of Knob Farm’s Hyrlo and Ferry modules but was unable to purchase before they sold out. FX send in 6hp sounds right.

I would prefer to support small MODULAR solutions and create workarounds to the rest (ask me about my FX send woes some day lol) using attenuators, VCAs, mixers, and switches which are all stock eurorack components and always able to be repurposed, rather than invest in a massive thing that won’t always suit me. That was why I got into this.

Good luck and have fun!
-- nutritionalzero

EDITED Jan 5th 2019, 03:50

Thanks, everyone for all the links, module examples and for sharing your experiences. That MW forum thread especially is an excellent dive into the technical bits.

Hello,
I have the same question, what's your conclusion ? For instance I still want to use mackie or soundcraft mixer, but i'm not sure how to out signals.
Best.

Chris Mayer discusses this in his "feeding the monster" videos. It depends on what signal a mixer accepts, this varyes from one mixer to the next.

EDITED Jun 14th 2020, 18:39

First of all, a disclaimer about taking my advice too seriously: I still consider myself to be very much in the amateur, or even hobbyist, category. Which is to say I don't have any official musical production training/education. I take my personal research very seriously and do my best to honor the knowledge and history that is shared here, but I'm no expert. So this is personal opinion.

That said, I am happy to share my experience. My personal modular system ended up like this:

And there are three very important pieces of external gear that go along with it:

• Digitakt - primary beats and clock source and sequencing
• SH01a - bass lines and chords
• Soundcraft Signature 12 MTK - mixer and audio interface to the computer

In the end I decided to relieve myself of doing beats in the modular because I would like to stick with only the Intellijel case. That's a combination of financial consideration + trying to force some constraints on myself so I maximize my use of what I have. The Digitakt also has the added bonus of its 8 MIDI tracks, which means I can use it to sequence my 3 modular sound sources (as you can see, there are 3 oscillators in there: Basimilus, Akemie's, Plaits), plus the SH01a. Which brings me to the mixer...

The sounds I like are very often crunchy, so I am OK with a not-perfect and not-pristine sound. So I did end up just going directly from the modular outputs into the mixer, also with 3.5mm to 1/4" hosa cables like @jburzy01 says above. I agree with the comments by @chaosnick above, but again, I am amateur hour here, so the sound is "good enough for rock and roll" for me. That's not to say I'm not tone obsessed, just that I have a pragmatic streak and don't kid myself that I am working with a professional studio. As an amateur, if I wanted to work towards clarity, I'd probably just stay entirely in the computer and DAW. That said, the "Peak" LED on the mixer does not light up on tracks from the modular. I have input gain buried to the left (i.e., as low as it goes) for most modules going in. Occasionally, I'll raise the input gain from the Erbe-Verb.

So generally, I have the Digitakt always going into the 9/10 stereo input channel. I always have my Chronoblob going into the other primary stereo input channel, 7/8, because it does stereo delays. And then one of the mono inputs gets the SH01a, say mixer track 6. After that, I usually have tracks 1-3 coming from the modular corresponding to patches using the Basimilus, Akemie's and Plaits. Then what I really like to do is feed the dry signals from any of these sound sources (Digitakt, SH01a, modular synth patches) via the mixer's sends back to the modular via the Intellijel Audio I/O to the Chronoblob or Erbe-Verb. And then I send the Erbe-Verb's outs directly to the mixer's mono tracks 4 and 5, which are hard-panned left and right, respectively. I also do similar things with sending a drum beat via one of the mixer's sends to the case, to the QPAS and back to the mixer.

Finally, the fact that the "MTK" version of this Soundcraft mixer has the multitrack USB connectivity to my computer, it is my interface to record directly into Ableton as discreet tracks.

This setup works for me, but the Basimilus is a pretty gritty FM sound, the Akemie's has its wonderfully, notoriously dirty/gritty sine waves an my favorite BHDSP2 patch is the granular delay. So I'm already in a slightly fuzzed out sonic space. If you are going for very clean/accurate sounds, you may want to focus more on some of the suggestions above regarding modules that step down to line level. I have kept @Lugia's comments to heart in case I get to the point where I feel it would be worthwhile to get more accurate sound.

But I spend many happy hours here for now...

Thks for sharing your experience and take time to write full explanation. I will try to use hosa cable (maybe Doepfer Adapter Cable 6.3/3.5 mm) to plug directly on soundcraft epm8. Maybe the release of the doepfer 130-8 octo vca mixer from doepfer could be also a gamechanger (or quad vca slim version to use output separatly and pan on soundcraft).

I too had this question. For my external mixer, I use a Keith McMillen K-mix which I love as it has bright lights and touch sensitive pads and provides 8 inputs/8 outputs plus on board reverb and compression effects. For modular mixers, I use my VCAs that have attenuators/inverters as well as a Doepfer A138c polarizer mixer and 3 channel Intellijel Mixup that has mutes and volume levels. The advantage of modular mixers from what I currently understand is the ability to mix CV and audio signals to create best submixes before send to a PA system or external mixer. Submixes are super useful! So if you have 4 voices and want to route these in creative ways then you can do so better than just send from VCA to an external audio mixer. I am saving for a larger case to get an all in one modular mixer that can let me route many voices and have CV control and mutes like the WMD Performance Mixer or the Befaco Hexmix.

you need mixers in the rack - both for modulation (ideally a matrix mixer) and for sub-mixing audio before feeding to filters/effects etc, and for panning of mono signals if your final output is stereo

the simple way to judge if you need attenuators or an output module before hitting an external mixer or audio interface is to try it:

1 straight from final module - does it clip (distort) or sound bad in any other way? - if no stop - if yes continue

2 use attenuators - try attenuators in between the final module and the mixer/interface - same question as above - same results!

3 use an output module - if you need balanced outputs then get them - if you don't need balanced outputs, then the chances are that atttenuators and converter cables are all that is really needed

If you need a headphone output then get a headphone output - 2hp and ALM Busy Circuits are places to look for dedicated modules

1/4"->1/8" cables and Passive attenuators - are really cheap - and you almost definitely need them anyway - 2hp trim or pushermanproductions do a DIY 8 channel trimmer - or any other attenuator you already have to try

Jim is correct. Bonus is that many VCAs have attuenuator/mixer built in so can get more bang for buck and space. My Intellijel Quad VCA and Befaco Hex VCA have these features which are nice. I feed mine from VCA to Doepfer Polarizing mixer and then to Intellijel Mixup then to external mixer. I still need a matrix mixer and another attenuator and switch. Can never have too many of these utility modules. If you look at prebuilt modular systems, most of the modules are utilities and support modules. Out of a 6U setup, only 1-2 modules are voices or oscillators with 1-2 filters! Take a look at the Make Noise Shared System, Erica Synths Black System and so forth. These only have a few sound modules. The rest are mixers and tools.