what do you think should happen when a sale ends up with a package (with tracking number but not insured) is lost???

should the seller refund all the money?
should refund half?

what do you think?

EDITED Nov 8th 2023, 15:46

You made a deal with the seller where you paid them to get the thing or things to you. Unless you explicitly agreed that you would assume the risk of it not arriving then it's all on them to ensure delivery by whatever means they chose.
So if it is lost in transit then by default they are responsible for a full refund.

You made a deal with the seller where you paid them to get the thing or things to you. Unless you explicitly agreed that you would assume the risk of it not arriving then it's all on them to ensure delivery by whatever means they chose.
So if it is lost in transit then by default they are responsible for a full refund.
-- Bleep

He now opened a complain to search the package at the postoffice.
When i asked to him if he's gonna refund me in case the package is totally lost he answered:
"Unfortunetly you never asked for insured shipping mate ... So i won't be able to do that ...Deeply sorry :/"

i payed as friendly payment on paypal, ill never do it again probably

EDITED Nov 9th 2023, 07:06

The law is a complex matter, and the rules vary from country to country. In France, the seller is responsible until delivery. In case of loss by the carrier, he remains liable (unless you have expressly chosen a means of transport different from that offered by the seller). It seems to be the same rule all over Europe, that is if you buy on the Internet in the European Union.

If you are European (Italian for example...) this link could help you: https://commission.europa.eu/live-work-travel-eu/consumer-rights-and-complaints/resolve-your-consumer-complaint/european-consumer-centres-network-ecc-net_en

You made a deal with the seller where you paid them to get the thing or things to you. Unless you explicitly agreed that you would assume the risk of it not arriving then it's all on them to ensure delivery by whatever means they chose.
So if it is lost in transit then by default they are responsible for a full refund.
-- Bleep

He now opened a complain to search the package at the postoffice.
When i asked to him if he's gonna refund me in case the package is totally lost he answered:
"Unfortunetly you never asked for insured shipping mate ... So i won't be able to do that ...Deeply sorry :/"

i payed as friendly payment on paypal, ill never do it again probably

well the guy is from France shipping to me in Lithuania so i guess he should refund me, right?
i can maybe pay for the shipping since we decided to be free, but i this point the guy sounds sketchy

So the link is: https://www.ecc.lt/lt/

If you are European (Italian for example...) this link could help you: https://commission.europa.eu/live-work-travel-eu/consumer-rights-and-complaints/resolve-your-consumer-complaint/european-consumer-centres-network-ecc-net_en
-- Sweelinck

Consumer law does probably not apply to private sales!

Did you e.g. use some kind of marketplace platform that states that you agree with certain responsibilities of seller and buyer?
If not, and you didn't discuss what party took what risk, you knowinly took the risk and you're on your own now.

why do we need to bring the LAW on this...

we are on a platform where people friendly trade or sell modules... let's just use common sense...

If i would have choose a "commercial payment" on paypal adding 4% to the final cost i would have been protected by paypal which just need a tracking number and a complain to refund, am i wrong??
If i choose friendly payment i'm also doing a favour to the seller who can get his money immediatly without waiting for the package to be delivered.

anybody have any problem with LAPOSTE from France? any lost package? later found?

why do we need to bring the LAW on this...

we are on a platform where people friendly trade or sell modules... let's just use common sense...

If i would have choose a "commercial payment" on paypal adding 4% to the final cost i would have been protected by paypal which just need a tracking number and a complain to refund, am i wrong??
If i choose friendly payment i'm also doing a favour to the seller who can get his money immediatly without waiting for the package to be delivered.

anybody have any problem with LAPOSTE from France? any lost package? later found?

-- lazarusgordon
As you used F&F then of course PP won't be any help and I fear you'll have to write it off as the law is your only recourse if the package is lost and the seller won't refund you. Realistically, however, you'd have to bring a case and the costs would be high and success is not guaranteed. So it's probably gone.
Another good reason never to use F&F I'm afraid. Sorry, and good luck it shows up eventually.

Fortunately rules exist to regulate transactions, including and especially on the Internet!
Whether for the Business to Consumer, or Consumer to Consumer. But again, ‘the law is a complex matter’.

For example, a particular seller can be (under French law in any case) legally qualified as a ‘merchant’ according to the regularity of his sales activity. Thus, regular acts of sale on a merchant site or even a simple connection site, can make an individual a merchant of fact (within the meaning of the Code of Commerce). Various others criteria can support this... And this is pretty good for protecting transactions.

Not knowing the context of this transaction in particular, the site where it took place, or even its amount and the profit made, and not being a specialized jurist, I will stop here my advice. After all, we are here only trying to bring some leads @lazarusgordon

PS: I have been ordering various gears for years in France, Germany, Spain, etc. No problem to report with La Poste on my side.

my main question is

As a seller here on modulargrid who has an etic and consider himself correct what would you do if the package is lost by delivery company and you have been paid with friendly payment?

the fact that all of you is bringin out the law and so on reinforce the fact that we are all a bunch of narcisist apes unable to live together in this world.

i would like an honest answer.
as i said the friendly payment on paypal is also a favour to the seller to get his money immediatly so a minimum of responsability is on him i would say...

the case is this:
i bought a module (chorus effect dimensions) on modulargrid from an user with 49 positive feedbacks. (330€ free shipping)
we actualky agreed to trade that module previously during another trade (he had that module on sale +others that ended up been already sold, a bit sketchy) but after a while he refused and decided to keep it and that trade ended up ok with another module (which implied him sending back some money + another module). i received his module quite fast with the same postal service.

now he decided to sell that module he didnt want to , chorus dimensions.
agreed on free shipping and paid friendly with paypal 330€
gave me tracking.
24 th of october he shipped.
since that day the tracking number has no updates, like as it has never left the post office....
he now (few days ago)opened a complain to search for the package.

that's the story....
could he fake the shipping of a package giving a tracking number of a lost package?
im starting feeling paranoid since the previous trade was a bit hars in communications and i feel he in the end was not happy with the choice of module he got from me (he is selling it already).
im thinkin he is trying to get "revenge" on his bad choice...

nobody here proposed at least a 50% refund as a solution.

are we really becoming so shitty as people ?

what would be your feedback in someone not refunding a lost package paid with friendly payment?

i will definetly never do a friendly payment again

EDITED Nov 10th 2023, 10:17

Looking at this from the perspective of a customer, I would personally assume the risk if I used Paypal f&f. I understand there is a risk going into the transaction this way. When the postal/shipping service receives the item, the seller is absolved of responsibility for the package. It would be kind, and expected, of the shipper to help with filing lost package claims and things like that, but the seller completed his or her end of the transaction. Your concern should be with the shipping company, and demanding an adequate response from them. That's how I look at it, anyway.

Looking at this from the perspective of a customer, I would personally assume the risk if I used Paypal f&f. I understand there is a risk going into the transaction this way. When the postal/shipping service receives the item, the seller is absolved of responsibility for the package. It would be kind, and expected, of the shipper to help with filing lost package claims and things like that, but the seller completed his or her end of the transaction. Your concern should be with the shipping company, and demanding an adequate response from them. That's how I look at it, anyway.
-- farkas

Actually, the shipping company's customer is the seller, not the buyer. As a buyer, trying to file a complaint for lost package will be either ignored or rejected on the grounds that you did not pay for it but the seller did - at least that's been my experience.

However, I agree that if as a buyer, you chose to pay with F&F (not really a "favor to the seller" because most sellers will cascade the fees on the selling price) and did not ask for shipping insurance (arguably this is also a bit on the seller I feel, at least I personally always try to inform people buying from me of such a risk before concluding any deal), you're essentially hoping for the happy flow and accepting most of the risk if not all.

im thinkin he is trying to get "revenge" on his bad choice
-- lazarusgordon

That's just crazy paranoia IMO. Most people will try to be honest while buying/selling music gear, as long as everything is going fine. But ask yourself in all honesty, would you REALLY propose, in such a case, to send 200€ to a buyer after the module you're trying to sell gets lost in the mail ? Let's not forget that the buyer is not really at fault here and the 49 positive feedbacks probably didn't come from nowhere, that's telling me he/she is acting in good faith the majority of times... Could he/she be super nice about it and split the loss? Maybe, but not sure I personally would be very motivated for that niceness after reading things like "narcissist apes" and "shitty people"...

On all other selling platforms it is the seller's responsibilty to up to the point of delivery regardless of insurance. Ive been on eBay for 24 years 2000+ transactions and have 300+ transactions on Reverb in the last 2 years. I've seen and experienced it all from both sides. The seller is being an asshole because he knows there's no way for you to get the money back without his approval. If he doesnt give it back I would post his info so no one else has to deal with this person.

On all other selling platforms it is the seller's responsibilty to up to the point of delivery regardless of insurance. Ive been on eBay for 24 years 2000+ transactions and have 300+ transactions on Reverb in the last 2 years. I've seen and experienced it all from both sides. The seller is being an asshole because he knows there's no way for you to get the money back without his approval. If he doesnt give it back I would post his info so no one else has to deal with this person.
-- obscuremachines

One very important distinction between those 2 you mention and MG using uninsured shipping + PayPal F&F is precisely the responsibility of the seller being engaged by the terms & conditions everyone agrees to prior to the deal, as opposed to here. As far as I know, both these platforms retain a portion of the sale money in order to protect the buyer until receipt, which could have been done here as well using PayPal Buyer's Protection.
Basically, a selling platform isn't the same as a classified ads section, in the latter the user is responsible for most of its security. If that same deal had happened on Modwiggler instead, I'd wager it would have gone the same way, for the same reasons.

If we're talking morals though, I personally would consider splitting the loss instead of covering the whole amount because that's what F&F means to me, as in if this happened between me and a friend of mine, we would definitely split 50/50 I think. There's also the question, which I think wasn't really cleared out, of whether the seller offered insuring the shipment and was turned down or if he/she didn't mention it at all and then says "you didn't ask for insurance, sorry, too bad for you" - first case is on the buyer, second is definitely on the assholery side :-)

Also, to be clear, linking a user name to a bad reputation in the thread created for this is totally fair game when the dust settled and one person feels they got a bad deal, but I wanted to say that posting personal info (e.g., names and addresses) is a bad idea and could land you in legal troubles.

@lazarusgordon I would suggest to wait for the result of the enquiry started by the seller, and if it doesn't succeed, you can suggest to use a State Mediator by sharing this link with him/her: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11064

Best of luck, I really hope La Poste finds the lost parcel soon so this ends with smiles and patch cables !

If we're talking morals though, I personally would consider splitting the loss instead of covering the whole amount because that's what F&F means to me, as in if this happened between me and a friend of mine, we would definitely split 50/50 I think.
-- toodee

But people on MG anren't necessarly your friends. As warned by MG (you can find this warning at the bottom of every ad):

Always prefer having Buyer Protection when you make a purchase using PayPal. Don't use Friends & Family unless the seller is your friend or family!
-- MG

MG is just an old school ad website.

why do we need to bring the LAW on this...
-- lazarusgordon

Because it's exactly the purpose of law, solve ambiguous situations like this one. I know it's a lot of money, it is frustrating, and one can feel scammed, but wait for the answer of the french postal service. They might just have missed a scan. Also, check with your local postal service, they might have missed a scan too, who knows. It happenned to me with USPS, and also LaPoste. Otherwise you can contact LaPoste yourself to ask for more information https://aide.laposte.fr/contact/colissimo . A google trad should work well enough.

I wish you good luck !

It's not on the buyer in any case because if we enter in an agrement for goods in exchange for payment and the payment was made regardless of the method, then the seller needs to deliver the goods. There is no grey area, the payment was made, the seller has the money. Buyer has no goods, seller needs to ensure the goods are delivered or refund issued. If the seller wants to play the "you didn't get insurance" game, then the buyer should say "you chose a subpar courier service". I have zero tolerance for this kind of fuckery, and I buy insurance anyway whether the buyer pays for it or not because I accept the responsibility to get the goods to the buyer and know the mail service providers don't give 2 shits about customer packages.

1 rule: Don't fuck with other people's money.

This seems to have gotten lost cause people don't get their asses beat anymore for pulling bullshit like this.

Edit: Also, seller tried to place the onus of buying insurance on the buyer, when in fact the seller is the one who trusted the courier to ship without insurance.

EDITED Nov 10th 2023, 20:10

so next question is...
if the package will be lost and the user is not refunding me, do i have the right to write his name/username in the "bad trader list" here on MG explaining the situation?

this is his full response on my complain about not wanting to refund:

I know well how it works, and when people want to use paypal protection service or ask me for insured package (and so they pay for that), i make sure that the package is insured at the value of the material. I make a lot of transaction in France and EU via multiple platform and i never had any problem with that. If you don’t pay for an insured shipping, you take a risk, and it is what it is unfortunately. I know it sucks but i’m not a shop so if people want security for shipping, they have to pay for it…

Hope they will find it, of course i will keep you in touch of the news.

Sorry about this situation but i can’t do much more

Have a nice day

EDITED Nov 13th 2023, 10:26

Hi,
just one thing about insurance:
you can pay insurance when you ship something, but in case of loss or damage you have to prove the value of your gear.
So you must have the original invoice to prove it.

If you don't have any invoice you will receive the fixed compensation. Even if you have paid an insurance.
It's useless to pay insurance if you don't have an invoice.
I don't know if the seller has the original invoice, but if he has it he should have pay insurance.
No need for the buyer to ask it.

In France, fixed compensation is 75€ + shipping paid for the parcel (for a module most of the time it's ~15€).
That means, if your parcel is lost, the seller will receive 90€ from La Poste...

I've had packages lost and the sellers immediately replaced or refunded, without question. Because it is the right thing to do. It isn't the buyer's responsibility to insure anything. It is the seller's. And they, in turn, charge the buyer. If they don't offer insurance, then it is on them. Period.
I will now use this thread to inform my fellow Gridders that I purchased a pedal from COAST SONIC (don't ever buy from them!!!!!). It was a Chase Bliss 1978 Reverb pedal ($900 big ones!). They provided "free shipping" but I never got it. The post office simply left it outside (no signature required, no insurance). We were able to use their GPS pin (they do that now) to pin it down to the approximity of my address (actually said next door). Either way, they refused to replace it, citing that it is MY responsibility to purchase insurance (which they, of course had never offered or even mentioned.)
That was a $900 loss for me. I will never forget.

Some wild responses here. Obviously the law should be considered here, considering it is a matter of law when there's a conflict. Something being lost, that sucking, but the retailer fixing the issue doesn't count as a conflict.

In the US it is quite clear. Sellers ship, sellers insure (even if they ask you to pay for it), sellers are the ones who have to file lost package claims, etc. It's on them. The one case it becomes the buyer's responsbility is if the buyer specifically waives a signature delivery. For example, Perfect Circuit requires a signature by default, but you can select the option to have your package just dropped off.

Private sales are the wild west, though. Always confirm terms in writing. I'm sure you could civilly sue someone, but you'd have to have been screwed out of quite the expense for it to be worth it to hire a lawyer.

EDITED Nov 13th 2023, 20:47

here the new answer from Mr "hundred of transactions"

Listen, i will answer you with some points :
-First, the adress was correctly indicated. I don’t make any mistake. Also, if the adress is wrong , the package would return to me.
-Secondly, all your explainations about responsability and rules were quite non respectfully acceptable. I already explained to you how things work usually and i manage an hundred of transactions here without any problem
-Thirdly, about my local post, i can only say that they suck because i don’t have any answer about my case and no, they don’t gonna refund me, becauseif it was the case, of course i would refund you ! I’m not a thief !
So yeah, this situation sucks and for now i can’t do much more unless wait an answer.
That’s all i can tell
Sorry about that… I will keep you in touch if something comes in
Have a nice day

Hello there,

I am the salesman this gentleman is talking about.

Yes, no need to hide because I'm not trying to hide anything.

I completely understand the situation and agree that this situation sucks!

I offered to reimburse him for half the price of the module as a fair compromise.

But it seems important to me to clarify how things have turned out since this gentleman asked for your opinions.

In fact, I received death threats from this man and he even sent me a photo of the front of my wife's mother's house where I lived before as a threat. Here are the messages:

Him "You have no idea what are you talking about and you are trying to find excuses .Read on the forum people's comments.
Have a nice watch on your back, mr hundred of transactions"

Me "Yes i exactly know what i’m trying to explain to you. You are referring to a forum when you use Paypal as a platform of paiement.But now i can see what you really are and you clearly threat me.I copy that !Thank you"

Him "im referring to the law and to common sense, which said the seller is responsible for getting the package to the buyer.
You're just using the fact that i did a favor to you by using a non protected payment to let you have immedietly the money.
Threating you? what the fuck im supposed to do? how old are you? spoiled kid. it's better for you if the package arrives soon or later because i have your address and i have photos of you from facebook. So i know where to strike my revenge. And i am a freelance so i can take breaks from my job whenever i want.pray for your shitty postal service to make it."

Me "Okay, look, I'm starting to get tired of all these threats.
I told you that I was doing everything possible to contact the postal service and for the moment I still have no response (I contact them once a week)
You make me look like a thief and you lose all your wits reading your threatening words.
So from now on, I'm going to ask you to stop threatening me and my family. When I have the slightest return from my postal service and if I have the slightest refund, I will send it to you immediately of course.
thank you for your patience"

Him "package is clearly lost.send back money to me"
==> He also sent to me a picture of the front of my wife's mother's house at this moment

Me "Look, I'm tired of all this and I'm starting to get tired of you coming after me with your threats.
How dare you do this and intimidate me with photos?
Do you realize what you're doing? Do you want me to call the police?
You should take it to the post office instead!
I remind you that you did not protect your payment so there is nothing I can do about it!
You're wasting my time and I'm still waiting for a return from the post office which keeps me waiting and I assure you it annoys me too.
The only thing I could do is refund you half! That's all I can do. But honestly you should be ashamed of yourself for threatening people like you do.
I was fooled once by not protecting a purchase and I never acted like that, it's part of life and I took it as a lesson. Since then I have protected all my purchases. You should do the same thing.
Now I'd like you to stop contacting me, and I'll pay you half back when I get my paycheck. THANKS"

Him "everything is upsidedown for you.
paypal protection is used to avoid having to be scammed by people like you who doesnt refund non-delivered items. It doesn't mean you can avoid to refund just because the sale was not protected.
It was a favour i did for you to pay as friend so you can immediately get the money. Why the fuck shouldn't i do the protection if is just 4% more? it's just a favour people do for the seller
The French law and in general european law say the seller is responsable for the package to be delivered. I can do nothing with post office. I called two times and wrote messages. There is no way to do anything for the receiver. Only the sender can do something.
You're wasting my money and my time for something i didn't even get and didn't even got over your local post office....
one of their last response was this:
"Only the sender can file a claim with our service, since he alone is entitled to compensation in the event of loss, damage, spoliation, unjustified return or incorrect delivery of the shipment."
You don't fucking understand it's on you.
You should pay back at least 300 euros (30 i can forget). You can pay 150 once and 150 later if you dont have the money."

The limits have been exceeded and I think one thing should be kept in mind: we are talking about eurorack modules in a community with the possibility of buying/exchanging. Damn it's not a big deal ! I know it's sucks but i tried to find a fair solution which is a half refund.

But what the fuck is going on where people are starting to threat people like this ? Seriously ?

I'm not okay to accept this so it's important to notice how things are in the all context.

I'm a fair guy and deeply lover of this community, but yeah, shit happens and that's part of the "game". But, come on, how dare people threat people like this guy do ???

@RandomProgression
death threats???
the address is the one given by the tracking number...kicking your ass is not a death threat, no need to kill anybody, just get my money back, kiddo. no need to involve anyone else. don't make a drama out of your bullshits

you offered half refund just now (1 month later this situation started) after i sent the picture of you address with "death threat" you're talking about, anyway... so it seems to work... a bit more push and maybe you will refund all the money...

yes, it's just a module, it's just 300 euros (330 to be precise but i offered to refund 300).. so why don't you send me back those fucking money and we end it.

EDITED Dec 3rd 2023, 14:56

You are ridiculously crazy.

You have to be angry about the postal service, not me.

If you wanted to have your full money back, you sould use paypal protection service. You didn't, so i propose you a half refund as you pay as F&F (50&50). Are you selfishly crazy too ? We both lost something, so let's split and don't talk to me again please.

Hope this situation will enlighten people and show that, on the one hand, you have to use the paypal protection service (as indicated by modulargrid) and, on the other hand, that some people here can be completely crazy and toxic.

For information, i refund this guy to the half.

EDITED Dec 3rd 2023, 15:06

Also,

Don't forget that this guy told me that :

"Hi!

I would buy i think

Could we make 300 with shipping included maybe?
With simple shipment with tracking number?"

So, i think it's quite clear. It's easy to open a conversation and blame people without expose the whole thing, and in this case, the basic one. Period.

I didn't do any mistake, he did. And i think i'm too gentle to refund him the half. But i did.

So, peacefull people on MG, be careful of this mad guy

EDITED Dec 3rd 2023, 16:47

@RandomProgression
death threats???
kicking your ass is not a death threat, no need to kill anybody
-- lazarusgordon

Listen, kid, threats are threats and under French law, can land you in jail regardless of whether it's a death threat or another type of threat involving an illegal activity. This is article 222-17:

The threat of committing a crime or misdemeanor against persons whose attempt is punishable is punishable by six months' imprisonment and a fine of 7,500 euros when it is either repeated or materialized in writing, an image or any other object.
The penalty is increased to three years' imprisonment and a fine of 45,000 euros if it involves a death threat.

You're incredibly lucky RandomProgression is a VERY nice guy, I would have definitely sued your entitled person, and definitely would not have reimbursed a single euro after receiving threats like the above...

Payal with fees does not increase the time for the seller to get the money, does it ? Or am I missing something ?

sometimes it does.
I don´t really know whhen this applies, but in some cases the buyer needs to validate the transaction when reveiving the item before the sellers gets the money.

Hi,
I never confirmed anything when I used paypal. I think that the protection allows you to claim the money if something wasn't well, but I think that the seller receives the money immediately in his Paypal account.
At least I have always received it immediately, before the package arrived. I don't know if you can withdraw it immediately or you have to wait a period of time in case there is a claim from the buyer.

from the web:

PayPal notes that the company puts payments on hold to help ensure that the platform is safe and secure for both buyers and sellers.

Although the money belongs to you, PayPal will temporarily keep you from accessing it to make sure there's enough money in your account to resolve issues like chargebacks or disputes.

Funds are released when the buyer confirms that they received the item they ordered in the condition that was advertised.

Some specific reasons why your payment might be on hold include:

Your PayPal account has been inactive.
The payment you received is unusual for your typical selling pattern.
PayPal found an unusual change in selling price for a particular transaction.
You're selling an item that customers may be dissatisfied with.
You've only recently started selling items outside of eBay.

Why is my payment on hold?

There are a number of reasons for why funds could be placed on hold, including:

You're new to selling. New sellers need to build up their buyer-seller credibility and history. Once you've established a successful transaction record, your status can change.
You haven't sold anything in a long time. Similar to being a first-time seller, if you haven't sold an item in awhile, you'll need to rebuild your credibility.
Customers filed formal complaints for a refund, dispute, or chargeback. If you've been flagged by multiple customers for various issues, PayPal may delay the availability of your funds. According to PayPal, the best way to remedy this is to work directly with buyers to ensure that issues are resolved as quickly as possible. To prevent complaints, be upfront about shipping costs, item condition, and return policy. You can also set up a customer service message to let customers know if an extreme incident — like a natural disaster in your area — is preventing you from shipping on time.
You have a suspicious selling pattern. PayPal will flag an account that has unusual activity, including a higher than normal selling pattern or a distinct change in the type of items sold.
You're selling riskier items. Examples of these kinds of items include tickets, gift cards, consumer electronics, computers, and travel packages — anything that is more expensive or event-related could be flagged

How long does PayPal hold your funds?

As long as there aren't any issues with your transaction or account (like an undelivered package or a customer filing a dispute), PayPal will release your funds within 21 days.

so unless you're using paypal as seller who sell a lot of stuff i guess you always have to wait at least untile the package is delivered.

going back on topic, half of refund is the minimum he could offer and i repeat he offered half refund only after threats of coming kicking his ass because previously he just was insisting on "it's not my resposability i can't refund" way of thinking... when LaPoste french postal service answered me that "Only the sender can file a claim with our service, since he alone is entitled to compensation in the event of loss, damage, spoliation, unjustified return or incorrect delivery of the shipment."

according to the (french)law i should have done what to get some money back? that's no sense to involve the law when it would cost more time and money than the actual result. that's why i insisted on kicking his ass. and it worked.

have a nice christmas whiny french, i considered it close.