User Posts

I think if you want 2 voices you're better off going for the 6u rackbrute, or better yet a mantis (more space, better power and no rack wart wasting precious hp) - this is because the support modules that are needed for 2 voices are really squeezed into 3u and it will leave you some space to expand into without the extra expense of buying a second case...

& maths takes up a lot of space out of 83hp...

good starting advice: buy a bigger case, buy fewer modules to start!

I'd get a full size plaits clone - not the beehive - trimmers are notoriously imprecise - so if you want to use it for tonal music, it's difficult to tune!!!

I want this rig to provide lead melodies/arpeggios and atmosphere.

how are intending to sequence? no sequencer (except the random ones in Pams) & no aropeggiator... the keystep?

where's the atmosphere? no reverb, no delay???

What are some other modules that I should be focusing on for modulation? Or after I get a Maths, hypothetically, should I turn my focus to VCAs?

you've probably got enough modulation between Maths and Pam's... take a look at my signature - it's a rough guide to building a modular synth that's as versatile as possible, for the least outlay... you're missing sound modifiers and utiltiies... I'd want at least one filter for each voice - and as plaits has 2 outputs (not stereo as such) I'd want 3 and possibly more... plus at least one module that can do delat and another for reverb... unless you have pedals or something similar (which you don't state)

you'll also want to mix your sound sources...

sequential switches, sample and hold, attenuverters, attenuators and offsets etc etc are also highly recommended and incredibly useful - utilities are the dull (& inexpensive) polish that are needed to keep the shiny expensive modules shining

a separate clock divider is also very useful... great for creating bass lines from other audio... /2 = -1ve, /4 = -2ve

& yes maths has attenuators/offsets - but you'll be using them for patch programming maths - so will need more (download the 'maths illustrated supplement' for more information) - BTW patch programming sounds complicated, but it's just patching - in this case self patching a module to itself to get extended funtctionality...

& yes Pam's works as a clock divider - but I'm not sure it can divide external sources...

How many VCAs do you think I'd need for this type of setup?

more than you think you do... vcas are extremely useful and powerful - they are for modulation as well as for shaping notes - 2-3 per voice is a good rule of thumb - although as they're also useful for controlling volume - more is always better!!! there's a reason behind the meme - you can never have too many vcas!!!

a good starting point would be a veils clone (or similar) - which is a quad cascading vca - cascading in that it has mixing capabilities built in... you may find you want more than one of these (or at least an extra dual or triple vca)

thanks for you reply

i am a little afraid by MATHS who look like very complicate to use

Doepfer A-143-1 seems to be simpler to use

-- cores

it's very simple, but deep... something to grow into... nothing to be afraid of!!!

thanks JimHowell

do you have a MATH ??
-- cores

I do have Maths, yes... have done for about 6, maybe 7 years... used in every patch either simply or in a more complex way...

I also have the a-143-1...

If I could only have 1 then Maths it would be

download the 'maths illustrated supplement' (google)

it'll give you an idea of what maths is actually capable of... it's a guide to patch programming it - especially useful if you spend the time going through it and concentrating on the what, why and how rathert han just patching blindly... and by extension a great resource for thinking about patching - when you patch your modular you are patch programming the whole thing not just an individula module

The main appeal of those modules for me is the ability to step through chord progressions with performance gestures in Rene

how are you going to get chord progressions out of this? also not enough voices for chords...

I am a big fan of the WMD SSF toolbox module and Intellijel Kinks/Links combos as they offer so much bang for buck in terms of space and features.
-- benscott

all good starting points (as is the xaoc samara), but you mean mutable, not intellijel...

EDITED Feb 21st, 20:06

works for me on macOS Sonoma with firefox...

what OS/Browser are you using?

FYI - it's almost always better to share the url of your public rack... especially if you want help/recommendations etc (click through and mouse over infomatics are really useful)...

[https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_1802754.jpg
I have built the rack up without any real thought to create techno beats what would I need to change as in get rid of and replace
be ruthless if you like..

once again - please make your rack public and post the url - so we can actually see what's in there... jpgs are really crap for this!!!

thanks for the in depth resonce I really appretiate it..I do most of what you have suggested vco/ filter/mixer but looking at your post I think I have problems useing envolopes ! im unsure where to use them and when ? can you advise me cheers
-- dougie834

Re envelopes: use them to open vcas (you don't have enough of these!!) - to pass audio (to shape notes) or modulation that is fed into the vca - and as modulation sources - probably via ayyenuators/attenuverters (again something you don't have enough of!)

Jim, you're my toughest critic and I understand your point of view.

The modular world has captivated me while I try not to let my passion get out of hand. On the long run that could be a dilemma.

Hahaha... yes... I do understand though... I kind of started off with something of the same idea... but quickly outgrew my first case (which was over double the size of yours) which took about 6 months... so bought a second... but then I discovered video and DIY... I now have 8... BUT and this is why I always recommend a mantis as a 1st case: I oftem look back and see that a mantis (case no2) would have been big enough to meet all my needs & I'd quite likely stuck with that... without getting into the habit of adding more cases

the biggest problem I see in ALL small racks is the trying to cram too much in and not having enough utilities - which are by far the most important and useful modules in my opinion

Yes, the next logical step would be a bigger case. Even though my small system may seem ridiculous to most of the community, I'm pretty happy with it for now. Combined with my Subsequent 37 I can get a lot of movement and noise out of it.

Anyway I would like to replace the 903a with another module, preferably a second synth voice. Does anyone have a suggestion?
-- Jockl

there's not a lot of synth voices in 4hp or less: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/modules/browser?SearchName=&SearchVendor=&SearchFunction=49&SearchSecondaryfunction=&SearchHeight=f&SearchTe=4&SearchTemethod=max&SearchBuildtype=&SearchLifecycle=&SearchSet=all&SearchMarketplace=&SearchIsmodeled=0&SearchShowothers=0&order=tag&direction=asc

out of those, I'd probably go for the erica pico voice, although my eperience with the pico series is both limited and frustrated... I had a pico seq and quite frankly found it near unuseable for my usecase - the lack of a reset input and the pressing of 2 buttons, one either side of the module in order to reset it made it impossible to use... ergonomics is really quite inportant!!!!

yes that has been my solution, generating new time code with a plugin on an audio track, sending it to bsp and from there to my other sequencers, worked flawlessly until I ran some updates to pro tools. Now nothing works
-- GunnarWaage

sounds like a protools issue tbh

is pro tools working correctly otherwise?

what was in the updates? do you need them, can you roll back the updates?

does everything else sync to the BSP ok?

is the output from the channel to the audio interface still set up correctly?

is volume of the output still the same?

what are you using as the master MIDI clock? the DAW? if so, the 'inaccuracy' of the clock is almost definitely a product of OS prioritisation..

MIDI in computer operating systems is low priority... so other things wich are higher priority, such as audio, usb mouse and keyboard signals and internet, for example, cause interrupts and hence can disrupt MIDI processing, to the point that it can be noticeable...

things that you can do to get round this are - sync to audio - ie use an audio track/loop to sync from the DAW at 24ppqn... or find something that can be used as an external MIDI clock and sync everything to that, including your DAW...

otherwise, turning off wifi and bluetooth etc may help to some extent...

I swapped the 914 for some other modules. Still no larger case ;-)
Any thoughts?
-- Jockl

yes... the same as before... get a bigger case... you don't have to fill it... that's what blank panels are for...

it will allow you to NOT have to cram smaller modules into a small space IMPROVING ergonomics AND so making your modular experience much nicer and more fun... AND allow you to add more functionality as and when you want/need to...

you can never have too many vcas - & you have only 1... they are for modulation as well as audio!

and the link:

Where can I get this 16HP version?
-- Hikove

possibly a typo - looks to be the same layout as the regular 18hp one & it does say it's just a black panel...

it's only the 4th day of 2024 - give the guy a break... check back there on Monday...

Making silly joke entries on Modulargrid probably isn't the best way to go after Behringer.

true, but it is amusing - and stopping it, as opposed to calming it down, as happened, would be censorship - so really bad!!!

Informing people that they're casually antisemitic liars who partially fund their douchiness by trying to undercut and drown out beloved manufacturers/designers, however, is not a bad thing.

no, it's definitely a good thing!!!

I've owned their stuff and not all their products (or even all their ripoffs) are bad.

there are always exceptions to rules

However, once people are told what Behringer is, they cannot claim not to support them by giving them their money - you choose something, you choose the consequences if you're informed on them. "Looking down on them" is just a bad faith interpretation of holding someone accountable for their actions, which isn't even an inherently exclusionary act.

exactly

But goofy stuff just undermines the point.

Maybe, a little bit, but it is funny - and you could see it from the other side - sometimes we can get the message across by poking fun at it - tbh my involvement in the digital graffiti started and stopped at laughing very loudly - particularly at 'abacuntus'!

The throttling of market participation by big douche companies has become so traditional by now that there are people here denouncing criticism of these practices because others partake in them as well. As long as those people and the people they're talking to can trick themselves into feeling reasonable, the problem isn't going anywhere.
-- Zacksname

ah yes back to the "occlusion of cognitive dissonance"...

the example of snap-on being the inventor of ratcheting socket wrenches is totally incorrect - the patent was filed over 50 years before snap-on was founded... the other companies are NOT copying snap-on! - if you don't believe me go to wikipedia and look at the pages for snap-on and socket wrench!! the 1864 patent is clearly mentioned on the socket wrench page and no mention of a patent is cited on the snap-on (founded 1920) page - the snap-on marketing slogan is just that - marketing! what snap-on may (or may not) have innovated with is their sales method...

beds, for example, have been around for thousands of years - the earliest known mattress is 77000 years old, bookcases have almost definitely been around since the earliest book (wikipedia says roughly 1500 years) and the concept of shelves in an open box, as a piece of furniture probably pre-date that by a long way... tables are at least 4500 years (again wikipedia)... the earliest shirt 5000 years (wikipedia) etc etc

these things are generic... but someone at some time (probably before any of these dates) must have invented them.... as I said, if you go back far enough!

behringer has been around for just over 35 years - and in that time have really only done one thing - copy other people's work - and been sued for it repeatedly - sometimes successfully, sometimes not... and for most of that time they've also had a reputation for producing some of the worst quality products in music tech - I've definitely known to, if at all possible, buy something else for at least 20 years... they've used intimidation (SLAPP lawsuits) to prevent criticism... etc etc

please show me the innovations they have made?

even Ikea and Amazon have made "innovations" - even if in at least some cases their business practices may be (extremely) questionable (especially Amazon - don't know about Ikea)

There's loads of music gear which is made in questionable overseas factories based on someone else's earlier design

but not so much in modular - until the b-company started doing it...

can we really look down on someone who sometimes purchases Behringer modules?

No and we shouldn't and I've never advocated this... I might have said that some people will - the same as some people will potentially look down on others for a myriad of reasons... but mostly what I see & comment on are newbie racks that haven't been bought yet & what I will always do in that case, is point them towards doing a bit of research and making up their own minds as to whether they want to encourage such behaviour by buying from them and pointing them towards alternatives that are similarly priced, if maybe a tiny bit more expensive - often similar functionality can be had from for, instance Doepfer, for only a few quid more!!! If their conscience says "I don't care" or their wallet says "I can't afford a conscience" then so be it... that's their problem not mine

& I might question a rack full of instro, or similar, powered by a b-compny power supply, or mixed by a b-company mixer (or quad vca) - you've a garage full of ferraris, why the lada?

Think about how many musicians got their start playing cheapo catalog-grade or low-end foreign imported guitars, horns, amps, drum kits, etc, made with rubbish materials and shoddy workmanship but designed to look just like the big names.

you're absolutely right here - and as I've stated - to some extent I think the b-company do a good job - specifically when it comes to building copies of instruments and modules that are out of production - and not going to be put into production again by the originators - even the 2600's - Korg kind of got what they deserved for that (producing way fewer than the demand for them, even at the much higher price) - the socialisation of electronic instruments - yay - big round of applause!!! but only for that - and only when it's done with some thought - big boos and thumbs down for v triggers

The companies behind those instruments didn't give a crap about traditional lutherie methods, the future serviceability of their products, or the intellectual property of those whose designs they ripped off. The half-broke teenagers who bought them probably didn't care about that either, they were just happy to get an instrument to play, and that's what set them on the path to become guitar gods later in life.

again you're comparing "mass market" to "niche market", "mass produced" to "artisanal"

& really how many 1/2 broke teenagers are actually buying modular synths - not many I suspect - if they're making electronic music then they're mostly using phones and laptops - and not hardware - especially if they had the phone/laptop bought for them as a significant number of teenagers will have had done...

and even if that's not the case then - eating ramen or cutting out starbucks or whatever they're able to do to get the money together to buy instruments isn't that much of a hardship - a lot of us did this in order to afford the instruments we own - & often less is more

and most of the teenagers that I know, admittedly very few, would rather buy used clothes than from companies utilising sweat shops, for example... they're much more likely to be green, "woke", anti-worker exploitation and anti-capitalist than most of us of the older generations were at their age, definitely more so than I was at their age - thankfully!! so maybe a little more hardship on their part, or a few less modules this month/year (as that's to some extent what we're really talking about - delayed instead of instant gratification)

given this: if you've a budget of 1000(€/£/$) you can choose between a dozen b-company modules or maybe 5 or 6 from other manufacturers - the difference being that the 5 or 6 have been built by people who've been paid properly & to a large extent care about the products and will repair them if at all possible and needed and not a faceless corporation that "exploits it's workers", doesn't really care about the products, throws failed items into landfill instead of repairing and puts money into the pockets of it's bigotted, millionaire owners - & yes I know b-company donates synths to education and claims to not make a profit (but I suspect that's after seriously big pay cheques to Uli & the other directors) - then most of those kids would prefer the fewer modules option, at least as far as I can tell

we're not talking about the same differences in price that were there when a lot of us were kids - when a knock of strat copy was 1/10th the price of a real one - Kraftwerk's 1st moog cost them the same amount of money as their, at the time brand new, Volkswagen Beetle (what's that 35k, these days?) - we're only talking 3 * the price, & probably less than that used, the equivalent of 40 starbucks coffees, or less, not 6 months or more of eating only ramen or beans on toast

even if we're talking only about modular - which to a large extent even a behringer modular is a luxury and non-essential item - there is no need for a batumi, or a maths, or a quad vca - or a clone of any of those modules - in order to build a workable modular synth - there's Doepfer (who even make a quad lfo that's less expensive, if less featured than the four play - at least according to the stated prices here) and Ladik and takaab and DIY modulues from any number of manufacturers that are in a similar ballpark cost...

BUT that's not how this thread started (but I hope this is how it ends):

it started with @drager complaining about some humourous mischief - that he tried to pass of as misinformation:

so @drager: please, stop being such a miserable twat, ffs - it's just a bit of well aimed (and possibly well meant) digital graffiti - so get a sense of humour and stop wanting to censor and subjugate others' freedom of speech - because that's what you seem to want & if you can't laugh at "abacuntus" - then what can you laugh at???

or go to another site for less amusing, censored (boo) and probably less informative information on b-company products: modwiggler - where they censoriously remove all the anti-b-company from any thread on b-company products and put them in a single (& I paraphrase for both humour and clarity) "B-company - their shitty ethics and why you shouldn't buy from these bullying, bigotted arseholes" thread - it's in the hundreds of pages - or the b-company forum - which is censored: all negative comments deleted - so about as informative and useful as a black plastic bag over your head on a safari - which may cater to you better than here...

NB no offence intended or given (as it can't be, in English) - but if you take it, well, good (or bad) for you!!!

some of the doepfer filter modules do this in 8hp - wasp, sem etc

Happy New Year!!!!!

Poor argumentation.

Let's take an unoffical poll: how many of us saw what ever module B had released and immediately upon seeing it thought, "Hang on?! That looks like...", then wondered here to have a closer look and get confirmation?

yeah that's what happens to me...

Of course there are very few new concepts, mostly just merging differnt combos of current building blocks, with specific UX/UI. But the fact that they haven't even tried to do anything different, layout, labels...It feels at the least provocative, if not an outright middle finger.
-- FATSO

the clones of in production modules aren't just a middle finger... they're outright corporate bullying - b-company knows they won't be sued by Arturia or Make Noise or Intellijel or Xaoc - as any such action will end up bankrupting them & probably before it gets to court...

This is repulsive just blatant theft of Intellijel intellectual property. If I saw this module in an artist's rack I'd never buy another album from that artist. Art means nothing without ethics.

-- Sedalus

Art has nothing to do with money or politics.

-- AEROCATONE

in a perfect world... we can but dream!

What else do you think pairs well with the Pluck?

anything that can be patched after any other sound source - filters, vcas, delays, reverbs, other resonators etc etc

Ah, Jim, I'm not surprised you showed up here. You are, after all, one of the most vocal and prominent users in the various threads where Behringer is discussed.

Maybe I am, I don't know - I don't pay that much attention, at least to statistics... but what I'm usually saying is this - it's up to you - but really do you want to give your money to known bigots? do you actually want to put your money towards innovation or towards corporate greed? do you want to buy a product that if it fails will be repaired or just replaced and the failed module end up in landfill?

remember: the misdeeds of the owners of music tech companies are not reported in the mass media - unlike, say, those of movie or rock stars... the masses don't know about them - chances are quite high that a newbie doesn't know anything about the b-company or Synthrotek - or a few other companies in the past... they just see them as another eurorack manufacturer, albeit on the cheaper end of the scale & which they may see as a good or a bad thing...

and will some people "judge you" for your choices relating to these questions? - yes of course they will - as you are for my pointing out of these facts in order to inform people so that they can make informed choices for themselves - as you will be to some extent for everything, from your car, to the clothes you wear, to how your hair is cut, to your accent etc - but how much you care about that and how you deal with it is your issue

see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil - begets evil, does it not!

I've been around long enough to know that often buying the cheapest option means buying again and again, whilst buying a more expensive (and robust) item can mean that the item is repaired and therefore lasts longer... and ends up cheaper in the long run...

And, more importantly, at least to me is that people have the right to choose where their money goes... I, personally, want as little of my money as possible going into the hands of bigots (amongst others that I won't go into here - as it strays towards both politics and religion)

if the b-company stuck to original designs, cloning out of production synths (with a little extra thought put in - v triggers ffs!!) and modules, improved their quality slightly (nuts on jacks for instance) and minded what Uli says publicly etc - then I wouldn't have a problem with them at all, in fact I'd be singing their praises... as it is though they are effectively bullies & I've never liked those...

I see you cherry-picked the low hanging fruit and chose to focus on the exaggeration part of my comment;

then don't leave low hanging fruit or exaggerate - I try my best not to...

I will admit that it is possible or even probable that there are certain relative newcomers to the world of music gear who have not yet stumbled upon any of the countless discussions about Behringer.

It's an absolute certainty - I have seen it many, many times!

My apologies, I understand that in this context, I should be more careful of my semantics and avoid any such tools as exaggeration, extrapolation or hyperbole as that will quickly be used in an attempt to invalidate the rest of my points.

Indeed - it's a shame you didn't follow your own advice for the rest of your post... especially the following paragraph!!

Clearly, some people believe that it's so important to make certain that all potential users or purchasers are "informed" that they continue to beat the dead Behringer hate horse at every opportunity - nay, not just beating, grinding said horse to powder in which they revel like bathing chinchillas. Meanwhile, the occlusion of cognitive dissonance continues.

hyperbole... and showing off your vocabulary... Keep it simple, stupid - this is an international forum and not everyone will understand what you are saying!! again - the b-company are effectively bullying smaller companies by copying their products - the small companies can't afford to defend themselves in court - the b-company would bankrupt them without a thought... so the only way to stand up to them is to point people in other directions - and for good reason - and sometimes it'll be succesful and other times it won't...

as for "the occlusion of cognitive dissonance" - this is endemic and we are all to a certain extent guilty of it, including you (& me) - because all that really means is that we choose to see and believe what we want to see and believe because it's convenient - not necessarily because we are right - remember: no one thinks they are evil - but at least some of us are!

Take, for example, a comment in the thread about Four Play: "If I saw this module in an artist's rack I'd never buy another album from that artist. Art means nothing without ethics." Does this person hold these values across the board? Do users who make such comments also refuse to own any other product (music related or otherwise) made by companies who operate in the exact same way? If a painter uses cheap acrylic paint and pre-stretched canvases marketed under store brand in mega-corporate chain craft store known for importing mediocre quality products manufactured under dubious work conditions, shall we refuse to cast our gaze upon their works and shun them as lesser artists because they should be using expensive products crafted by small, local artisans?

well... that's definitely not a quote from me... and as such, I can't speak for that person... but there are issues here...

1 the provenance of the canvas/paint is much less obvious than that of the "offending" module - even if the artist posted their workspace in a similar way to the musician - the tubes of paint and canvases are less likely to be branded or be as distinctive... and therefore not so blatantly obvious

2 there's a big difference between passive and active consumption - the act of viewing a painting is more akin to listening to a piece of music on the radio or in a bar than it is to actually buying an album, whether it is digital or physical

3 most consumers of art (in whatever medium) are not aware of or interested in the tools/processes/time etc that are used to create the art... they only experience it as a delivered artwork - those of us that are aware have a right to be more discerning, if we choose to be... the only people who will take any stock of this are those who also practice in the same art form and often not then unless they are particularly interested in how a particular piece was made...

4 a lot of people would equate great artist with professional with making money above and beyond the absolute minimum needed to survive - at which point they can afford the nicer tools (and often write them off as business expenses) - I do think this is spurious though - I don't equate popular with good, necessarily, or conversely unpopular with bad - and of course there's no accounting for tastte (mine included) - I may be able to tell that it's well executed - Adele, for example - a reasonably proficient singer - but dreary, formulaic pap for the masses with absolutely no progression and no artistry- just good marketing... sell the same thing again and again - or photo-realistic painters - great draughtsmen, but again nothing to do with actual art...

I think the original point of this thread stands. Most of us aren't here because we want to be inundated with repetitive commentary about why this company or that is evil and should be avoided. Most of us are here because we want practical and accurate information about the functionality of modules we own or are considering. Rather than focus on the debate over how many people are aware vs unaware of the Behringer controversies, why not actually discuss the more relevant points here?

No the original point does not stand at all - it is tantamount to wanting censorship and the subjugation of freedom of speeach... and even worse - the maintaining of your 'freedom of speech' over mine (& others!)... it's like turning a blind eye to poverty, whilst sipping champagne

It's cherry picking what you want others to hear/not hear based upon your world view....

or a review site that only allows positive reviews... despite the fact that some of the things being reviewed are utter crap or have incredibly poor customer service and deserve to be called out as a warning to others...

you can't have your freedom of speech, or expect to have someone defend it, without extending the same courtesy to everyone else, and defending that right - no matter whether you agree with them or not... it's the basic underlying principle of freedom (of speech) - it's a double edged sword - in order for you to have yours, I must have mine too...

otherwise you end up with Farenheit 451 or The Handmaid's Tale being a reality - oh wait a minute we already have to a lesser extent

now in this case there are places where you can have exactly what you want - Modwiggler is an excellent forum for modular synthesis (despite, in my opinion their censorious sidelining of all criticism of the b-company into a singular thread - which I intenesly dislike, but understand due to Uli having threatened to sue gearspace & it's members) - or the b-company forum (where all criticism is deleted) - it's your choice

Another example comes from the Abacus thread: "If you care about the euro community avoid this." Why?

because some of us (hopefully a majority - or at least a substantial minority) would like small companies that are more likely to innovate survive long enough to do so... the chances of the b-company coming up with anything musically (or not, for that matter) innovative are near 0

Maybe some of us could give a rat's tail about the stuck up elitism of the so-called "community" which, while incredibly helpful users are plentiful, seems to be dominated largely by jerks who would snub new users who are dipping their toes into the modular waters with low-investment, low-risk modules that make it easy to get started without spending years researching what modules they need and saving up thousands of dollars.

I've never snubbed new users & I'm definitely not elitist - far from it - but I do really advise at least some research - including the owners of the companies they are buying from & I definitely have pointed new users in other directions - used doepfer modules for instance are not that much more expensive than b-company products and are much easier to resell, I would imagine - therefore being lower risk than even b-company

I also don't recommend the nifty bundle - too small a case, with poorly implemented features and modules that haven't got a particularly good reputation, which may be outgrown almost immediately and difficult to resell - possibly even difficult to give away...

nor do I recommend intellijel cases - unless the buyer has done enough research and some forward thinking and doesn't mind being tied into buying specific modules, which may or may not be suitable 6 months down the line or be completely unnecessary - midi and output modules in particular... although these days there are other manufacturers making alternatives

nor do I recommend Synthrotek modules or DIY kits - reportedly poor customer service & poor quality modules & an owner who made rape jokes on a public forum... and is unapologetic about it...

nor do I recommend a lot of (modules from) other brands - often due to them being overly expensive for what they are

mostly I recommend Doepfer (& full size mutable clones, now mutable is gone) or used modules and having a decent roster of utiltiies and learning to patch so that you don't need to buy, for example, a panner module or a crossfader - because for the 10% of the time you'll use it - you could have just patched it up yourself & then use the modules for something else when you don't need that functionality and I do recommend tiptop mantis cases - because they're the best bang for buck - taking into account manufacturer reputation/decent power supplu/ cost/ size... and befaco power excalibus power supplies - because they are quiet and inexpensive and DIYable...

but all these are, are my opinions, suggestions and recommendations... people can take heed or not, as they choose... I'm not forcing anyone to follow them at all! nor am I judging people for their choices... nor am I forcing anyone to read them or intending to offend anyone... remember: in the English language one cannot give offence, only take it!

way before the b-company entered the eurorack & semi-modular market - there were (& still are) many budget/inexpensive options - DIY, doepfer, ladik, takaab etc but they are tiny companies (doepfer is 4 people!!!) and they have miniscule marketing budgets, so do not have adverts in the wider synthesizer or music tech press & are not run by bigots (or at least not by ones who have publicly shown themselves to be so)... they are run by enthusiasts, who care deeply about what they are doing and understand not only the market but also the actual users of their modules - as they are themselves users of their (& others) products.... ie people in the industry who deserve to be supported by us - the community - buying their modules or kits or pcb/panel sets

and yes a lot of these modules are derivations of publically available circuits, but often with some embellishments & of course there are all the clones of mutable instruments modules, sometimes with useful embelishments, often not - made from publically available open-source circuit diagrams and code - an unintended side-effect of open sourcing... but they're not overtly obvious copies of in-production modules...

as for me: a good 1/2 of my modules (& racks & power supplies for that matter) are DIY and a sizeable proportion of the rest are doepfer - a relatively inexpensive and low risk way of getting what I want...

learning to solder will take you a couple of hours... and give the builder and user of these modules much more lasting satisfaction than buying similarly priced (usually inexpensive) modules

The guitar market has plenty of high end boutique instruments, amps and effects, but they wouldn't sell very well if there was no market because we shunned anybody who bought a low cost entry level guitar and amp made by a large predatory company with Chinese labor to learn on.

there's a huge difference in market size between, for example, guitars and modular synthesizers & there always has been & quite possibly always will be... the comparison is disingenious.... and that does at least to some extent need to be taken into account - the companies (mostly Fender and Gibson and Rickenbacker) who had their instruments copied, were by the time the copying took place, big enough to actually defend their copyrights/patents (& not always successfully - hence the proliferation of strat and les paul alikes) and the companies that were making the copies were comparatively small - this is not the case with modular synthesizer manufacturers, it's the exact opposite - especially against relatively big corporations in a legal climate where often the more expensive lawyer / more money to defend their POV wins... none of the eurorack companies have the money to get into this fight with the b-company - so just have to take it on the chin and hope that enough of us actually buy their products as opposed to the knock offs so that they can continue to make a living

guitars are in a lot of ways the mass produced fast moving consumer goods of musical instruments and have been for years - the companies who make these instruments managed to get big enough before the cloning started that they could (just about) survive - both Gibson and Fender have almost gone bankrupt at least a few times... and in some part stop the smaller companies

with modular & specifically the b-company in regards to the currently in-production modules they are cloning - this is the opposite - it's a large rich corporation - potentially making higher returns on investment, due to economies of scale and actually having the ability to make their own components, and reduced labour costs and probably reduced costs of doing business, taking the work of a small company and profiteering from it - and those small companies are definintely not making huge profits (the owners may be "comfortable", but they're not rich) - and if you don't believe me go and find on youtube Tom Erbe's video on the costs of developing and manufacturing modules and then find Tony Rolando's (Make Noise founder) correction - believe me, it's "bad enough" when you just take into consideration Tom's view point, before Tony wades in with "and you forgot this, and this, and this"...

I think Replicant phrased it neatly, "Do you own a socket set? If it wasn't made by Snap-On, it's a knockoff....but I certainly can't fault the average person for buying a cheaper one.
How many of us have Ikea furniture instead of buying handmade from small designers?"

-m
-- mrcoffee883

almost everything is a knock off if you go back far enough or stretch the point far enough... the house you live in, the car you drive, the clothes you wear, the computer you surf the internet with, the tv you watch, the radio you listen to etc etc - but these things are so ubiquitous and necessary to a greater or lesser extent - so again totally different category, both, sort of, fast moving consumer goods - or at least not niche - with much much bigger markets & are much more 'generic'* - remember: all musical instruments are niche products - and much different markets - specifically with ikea: everyone needs furniture to some extent and you buy what you like within a subset of what you can afford - a bed or table is not a niche product within a niche within a niche

in the case of snap-on - like the guitar companies - it's large companies products being copied by small companies and the probability of the concept of a socket set being ruled so generic that the copyright/patent can't practically be enforced (see fender stratocaster, above) - and the originator has to rely on good customer service, reputation and marketing to charge a premium for their product - or more likely, me having just read the wikipedia articles for both snap-on and socket set, snap-on don't actually appear to have invented the socket set or patented the idea - and so the "if it wasn't made by snap-on it's a knock off" may just be an urban myth - almost definitely started and proliferated by snap-on as a marketing ruse! (this might not be the case - wikipedia is not the absolute last word - but it's usually good enough!)

& no I don't own a socket set... yes I do own some things from ikea - bookshelves, picture frames, a solid wooden table, a solid wooden stool - and definitely not an uncomfortable, poorly built sofa that is built to fall apart in a couple of years...

nor do I buy 'fast fashion' - I generally want my purchases to last and be repairable etc.. not just end up in landfill

if I had my choice in the matter - I'd much rather live in a world without money, where everyone is free to do as they like (as long as they didn't hurt others) and have whatever they wish for (can you tell I was raised on Star Trek?) and innovation happens for it's own sake and not the pursuit of money or power - unfortunately, that's not the case, at least not at the moment

Anybody who's been on the internet at all for more than five minutes knows exactly how some people feel about Behringer, and why.

that's quite an assumption & based on the evidence on this and other forums it is blatently incorrect...

many people have no idea of the history and practices of the b-company or the behaviour/views of the 'owners'... especially if they are coming to eurorack (or semi-modular) synths without other experience in the music tech world... same goes for Synthrotek...

it's easy to forget that the knowledge that you have is not actually common knowledge, even if a large number of the people that you interact with on the internet are also party to this knowledge

the only really stupid thing is making uninformed decisions... and those who are uninformed have a right and a need to be informed - at least here, it is, to some extent, humourous and not swept under the carpet or summarily deleted, as it is on some other forums...

it's almost impossible to completely avoid the b-company - another music tribe brand manufactures (and is the sole manufacturer of) a lot of electircal components commonly used in music tech (including by quite a few higher end brands)... some of their products are the only choice if you want some specific synthesizers or modules...

I don't understand all the screaming and bashing of Behringer products.

then you haven't been buying music tech for a long time and/or haven't done a minimum level of due diligence

there's a big thread on modwiggler re the ethics of the company... I suggest you read at least some of it! it's not a new thing - they've been doing it since they started, at least 20 years ago and not just with synthesizers... cheap and shoddy knock offs of whatever music tech they think they can sell... and not treating customers or competitors or critics with any respect whatsoever...

let me correct this for you:

If you want to combine quality with design, buy Intellijel or Doepfer or others, if you want to buy inexpensively, buy

Doepfer or Ladik

Doepfer Quad-VCA is only slightly more expensive...

indeed - on a per vca price - so are veils clones or the intellijel for that matter - we're not talking about cwejman clones!

So people, make music or noise, but let each buyer make their own decision!
-- ricochet-75

but let's make sure that it's an informed decision and not based purely on price:

do you want to buy from (corporate) arseholes who only poorly copy other peoples designs or do you want to spend a few extra quid and give your money to small companies that actually design things (ok so those designs may be based on other things - but at least they put some effort in and may actually innovate from time to time)

given the amount of time I do spend on this and the other things I also have to do on xmas eve - no...

-- JimHowell1970

i would never ask for that time, again thanks for time and efforts you all, much appreciated, I don't want to bother you longer


happy xmas

-- Dan_ogq

actually I did just google "edge threshold synth module" - if you'd used "edges" plural & not "edge" I'd have worked out it was a mutable clone - as I would if you'd posted your rack when asked....

happy xmas

honestly? i am not sharing my rack because i don't want to waste time discussing every single choice I have made so far.

PS no idea what you mean by "edge/threshold" - unless you mean a comapator or envelope follower!

-- JimHowell1970

you didn't even have the time to check on google what an edge/threshold module is, i can imagine how deeply a whole rack would be analysed.

given the amount of time I do spend on this and the other things I also have to do on xmas eve - no...

and you're wrong and obviously didn't understand or chose to ignore the rest of the post - as I said it's not about the individual modules it' sabout the balance... I really don't care what modules you have or don't have - but I do see that given that we've continually said post your rack - you don't take advice well - not our problem - it's yours!

my honest advice - get another row and fill it with a variety of simple utilities... and that's all I can really do without seeing your rack

happy xmas

Across the industry I have experienced a +30% failure rate of Eurorack modules. This is unacceptable. These companies should be held responsible for their horrible, low quality production practices.
-- Humdrum

30% failure rate?!? I've not had a single module fail. Is the power in your rack suitable? Seems there might be something else going on.

-- farkas

I wouldn't go so far as not having had a single module fail - I've had 1 or 2 go - but that's out of a hundred over 7-8 years...

either the OP is incredibly unlucky or there is something causing the problems... quite possibly power as @farkas suggests!

as one of those responsible for championing utilities without going into a lot of detail as to why or how they are so useful there is method behind this "madness": promoting independant research - it's much more productive in the long term than spoonfeeding...

as for a definition of "utility" - simple modules that provide simple functions for multiplying, merging, derivation and modifying electical signals - not envelope/function generators or LFOs - they're modulation sources nor effects modules (sound modifiers) - envelope followers are utilities, waveshapers are imo borderline between being sound modifiers and utilities - I'd also class interfaces of any kind as utilities

in the formula in my signature lots of modules are in multiple categories - Maths is both a modulation source and an utility depending on how it's used/patched... personally I'd err towards modulation source - as that's how I generally use it - or don't really fit - sequencers are a good example... but might fit in as modulation sources or sound sources, depending on how fast they are clocked

I tend to categorise by primary intent

May I make a suggestion?

If you don't want people to see your rack as it is, make a copy of it, edit out the things you want to be private then make this copy Public so we can all see.

Whilst I can't see what the hell anyone would actually want to hide in terms of the modules that are in their rack - I do kind of agree with this...

Here are my racks (not 100% up to date - but close enough)

a balanced modular tends towards this:

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities
-- JimHowell1970

depending how you count these, I would say my planned rack is not too far from your proportion, depending on how you would count a PAM or a O&C or a Threshold/Edge or many other modules with multiple functions, maybe i should browse the utilities section again and see if i find inspiration there.

It's quite a fluid formula - and open to interpretation - is tides a sound source or a modulation siurce? is a self-oscillating resonant filter a sound source or a sound modifier? I'd usually group things by primary intent within the confines of the rack...

Not all modules are meant to fit in - it's not a comprehensive theory of everything, it's a suggestion of a way to think in order to get the most versatility in patching in a modular for the least expense (& it scales incredibly well - from the smallest rack to Vince Clark proportions) and particularly to steer people away from just buying sound sources and modifiers - there are newbies who don't want to buy mixers as they think they are a waste of money, until of course they work out that they need one or more to get the most out of the expensive shiny modules that don't interact without them...

Pams and O&C & distings - and similar modules don't really fit - at least until in some cases the user has settled on a primary intent for the module - say using O&C as a quad

I'm not a big fan of multi-function modules... I only really have one - a disting mk4 (ok 2, I have a pams as well) - and I only really use it for one thing - tape delay (although if I desperately needed something else that it can do I would use it for that) - I prefer, especially with utiltiies - single function modules or small collections of functions that are all available at once - kinks, samara etc

I really think the best use for modules such as disting and O&C is to determine which modules you really need - so if you always use the O&C as a quad quantizer, buy a quad quantizer and use O&C for something else, and repeat...

If this is a planned rack (as opposed to a physically owned rack), as you state above, SERIOUSLY, the best thing you can do is share it... it will massively help us help you... don't be embarrased that it might be a pile of unusable crap or that you are spending thousands on a monosynth or that it's too big/small or whatever... the single worst thing you can do is not to share it...
there are people here (myself included) who have years & years of experience helping newbies design workable modular synthesizers - taking into account many many factors and many different styles of music - and we do it for free!!!

A picture paints a thousand words, as they say!!! - and the url of your public rack paints a thousand pictures

maybe some crazy utility module at 4/6 hp with a reasonable amount of no-nonsense trig ins, cv outs and vcas, or potentially even bigger if it also brings a 2 channel audio mixer might do the trick of adding more potential automations

-- Dan_ogq

this really sounds like too much in too small a space to be ergonomically pleasing - ie playable, ie no fun...

PS no idea what you mean by "edge/threshold" - unless you mean a comapator or envelope follower!

i don't think knowing I have that particular module would be relevant to the question, signals are signals no matter where they come from.

it's not about particular modules - it's about balance

for all we know you may have mostly sound sources and sound modifiers and hardly any modulation sources or utilities, you may or you may have adequate modulation sources and not enough utilities... seeing your rack really helps in that regard - I've seen and helped hundreds of people with their racks, over years - but I kind of need to get an overview of what's in the rack in order to give advice... it's a massive aid to thought...

a balanced modular tends towards this:

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities

& most people at least in the early stages of their modular (the first few years) tend to have very few utilities

the solution for you rack may be remove a couple of vcos and an effect and add more utilties - or add a row and fill it with utilities... but it's impossible to tell without actually seeing it - imo any advice you get without us seeing your rack will be spurious at best

the reasoning is quite straightforward, patch cables go from input to output hence an optimised system should ideally have the same number of these, no matter which modules are included.
I have checked my system and there are 90ish inputs and 60ish outputs, and as because the audio signals already converge into one stereo/mono output (more or less), what's left out is just unused cv inputs (plus maybe one or two triggers).

not all modules need to be used in any given patch and not all inputs and outputs need to be utilized...

i think this is a situation many people can relate to, but I would like to explore solutions other than just stacking and duplicating modulations... for instance rectifiers seems quite a cheap and interesting solution

most utiltities are (comparatively) inexpensive, especially if you go fo doepfer or ladik or similar manufacturers and not instruo!
attenuverters, offsets, switches and matrix mixers are more...

you may be putting undue pressure on yourself to use everything all the time - I have 4 guitars, a bass, 20+ effects pedals, 4 amplifiers, about 1500hp of modules (both audio and video), a few keyboards, some outboard etc etc and amazingly I don't use all of it all of the time - in fact I use very little of it at any one time, at least in some part because it's physically impossible - I just use what I need when I need it...

a note about the ochd: i love the idea behind this module, but i would rather have 4 only lfos but with a reset input and knobs to tweak the frequencies...
-- Dan_ogq

at last something we can agree on! at least to some extent - unsynced modulation sources are great for adding a little bit of movement to synced modulation - matrrix mixers are your friend in this...

and what goes in racks?? ah yes, modules - what you already have WILL influence recommendations!

it's entirely possible that you have at least one, or more, module that couold be temporarily sidelined in order to fit something bigger in... but unless you share your rack we won't know...

my recommendation would be for a matrix mixer, preferably doepfer, for ergonomics reasons... and some stack cables...

another possibility might be a sequential switch...

but as far as I know you already have these...

do yourself a favour - make your rack public and copy and paste the url into the thread!!!

there's no need to use every input or output...

it might be a good idea to share the url of your public rack so we can see what you have - it usually helps steer the recommendations a bit...

OK

Plaits is a different story... Mutable Instruments stopped, right? Who will repair if I buy second hand?

there are plenty iof people who can repair mutable modules - all but beads are completely open source, both hardware and software... a lot of the other clone manufacturers - After Later Audio etc I suspect will repair their modules if they need it - b-company on the otherhand will probably just bin it and give you a new one - not very environmentally friendly!

it might be an idea to share the url of your public rack - so we can see what you intend to buy... and what your budget is - both initial and ongoing - plus the case you intend to use...

usually people mock up their racks and paste the url when posting questions - it really helps and then list the extra stuff they have... this might be an idea for you?

I wouldn't want the microcosm as end of chain processing - I think things like that tend to work better when processing singke voices as opposed to many - although reverb is always good on full mixes...

sounds like you want a mixer... possibly an external one - I used a yamaha mg10 for quite a while - reasonably inexpensive

hmmmm.... I think you'd be much better off with a bigger case and something like a keystep pro... because you wiull need the expansion space almost immediately with this setup... I'd really suggest a great deal more research before parting with cash....

there are fundamental things missing...

your description of the intellijel adsr's compactness made me chuckle... as did the "you can never have too many lfos" when there's only 1 in there - the "you can never have too many.." meme is usually used for vcas...

speaking of which, there are no vcas to plug the envelope generator into... ok there's one on the tonestar, but that already has an adsr built in...

buchla is often linked with lpgs (not filters) which are also none existant... these are a cross between vcas and low pass filters...

whilst the tonestar is a voice - the tiptop/buchla module is a dual vco - you will see on the tonestar that the vco is a small part of the voice... they have no

reverb and delay are both incredibly useful...

take a look at my signature and think long & hard about how you might apply this to a rack that you might want...

seriously consider a minimum viable synth (at least to start):

a sound source (possibly rthe tiptop buchla one), a sound modifier (possibly 1 of the filters), a modulation source (you'll want more than 1 channel - a quad is a good idea, batumi - or possibly maths - particularly if you are into west coast serge/buchlaesque concepts), a way to listen (a quad cascading vca will work wonders as a basic mono output - a veils clone) and a way to play (maybe a keystep pro - or a pams - which could also double as a modulation source and a random pitch source) and a basic utility module for attenuation/inversion/offset (happy nerding 3 * mia)

another good idea is to work out what modules you want (based around how many voices you want) what modules each voice will need, what supporting modules they will need when combined and then work out how much rack space you need - leaving a good 25% of any rack you buy free for expansion - you will need it... instead of deciding on a case because it appears to be convenient...

if you want to fit the 4 voices that the nifty keys is designed for you, into it, you need to go much more compact with every module...

the besst thing to do in many ways is to start with very little - ie a minimum viable synth... a sound source, a modulation source, a sound modifier, a way to play and a way to listen... plus maybe a basic utility...

so:

sound source - literally any will do - plaits clones are popular - as they have a lot of variety

modulation source - pams or maths are both great - although both complex (in different ways) - 1 is programmable with a simple menu system - the other is programmable with patch cables (this is a very powerful method and will transfer to all patching - see the 'maths illustrated supplement for further details - but really requires a lot of deep thought about what, when and how to get the most out of it)

a sound modifier - a low pass filter is a good start - doepfer make some inexpensive classics - moog, wasp, sem etc... and a multifx is another useful choice if you want to push the boat out a bit further - I'd go fx aid pro (screen exponentially improves the user experience)

a way to play - if the modulation source is Pams - then that can be a good start - it can do quantized stepped random pitch - otherwise it really depends on you...

a way to listen - a quad cascading vca such as a veils clone is a great starting point, although probably mono - which isn't really that big a deal - it will do the job and always be useful!

an utility - a module that can do attenuation/inversion/offset/mixing is also a good investment - possibly the best is the happy nerding 3 * mia - but there are others...

learn these modules inside and out and once you have done that (probably weeks, if not months) start adding slowly, 1 or 2 modules at a time, and repeating... try to keep a note of what you are missing as you go...

hope this helps...

Wow, what a thoughtful reply! I was just making notes to self for future idea.

I got this case as I wanted the spectraphon and did not have any room for this giant in my two cases. Once I have a house, I'll allow myself to buy a large eurorack case and have my "studio" somehwere other than the hall.

-- k0s0

sounds like a plan - sometimes it's hard to tell if people are newbies or not...

good luck wiht the house!!!

...Maybe I want the Nautilus delay with MI Veils or equivalent.
-- k0s0

I'd almost definitely want a quad cascading vca... veils or a clone is a good choice...

and probably a delay and a reverb...

don't think I'd want the nifty bundle pedals though... they don't have good reputations & are hard to resell...

tbh with the spectraphon - I'd want a bigger case... not enough room for support modules in a nifty case...

take a look at my signature - think it over for a while... then think about the modules you want and need to support it and then pick a case to house them, preferably leaving some space to expand (20% or so at least)

hexmix seems like overkill...

only 1 very large sound source?

only 1 very large effect?

possibly too much modulation...

not enough utilities besides the huge mixer...

rosie is discontinued (I think) & do you really need an output module? maybe not

black maths is kinda unobtanium unless you buy a shared system...

I'd suggest taking a look at my signature and spending some time thinking about it and how it relates bith to your rack and mission statement...

oh look and here's the actual link:

I'm not going to have that much of a go at the b-company modules - it's a matter of (your) conscience and ethics if you buy them or not - but supporting small manufacturers (ie everyone but the b-company) - who are more likely to inovate - is definitely a better way to go imo & I'd replace all of those if it was me...

other modules that could be removed:

scales... midi to cv and pitch cv from Ableton etc should be quantized and Pams can be used as a quantizer (& random pitch source) amongst other things... so why scales?????

link... can you not just use 1/8" -> 1/4" cables???

magneto - it's very large in such a small system - there are many other delays out there...

btw the befaco instrument interface is great!

do you really need so many inputs???? not enough mixing capability to take advantage of them in such a small rack with so little processing???

which leads to not enough utilities to support the modules... (including mixing)

I'd suggest taking a look at my signature and spending some time thinking about it and how it relates bith to your rack and mission statement...

EDITED Dec 6th 2023, 20:31

I'm planning on buiding a eurorack to connect to a keyboard for dugeon synth and dark ambient style music. Capable of soft, vintage and retro sound scapes. I'd like to keep everything minimal. Not too many modules with a small case build (65hp). Modules im looking for would be an fm oscillator, a filter, envelope controls (adsr), some vintage or lofi effects. And some delay reverb modules at the end.
-- Meenthgrea

with only 65hp you have run out of space before you fulfill your list of wanted modules - at least in any way that takes basic ergonomics, ie playability, into account... it is not unusual for newbies to

this does not include any space for the modules that you have left out that are needed to support the modules you think you want - specifically modulation and utilities... or for any expansion at a later date

further note - an fm oscillator is often paired with another vco in order to facilitate audio rate fm (

NB - the tex-mix master section requires at least 1 of the 4 * (stereo/mono) channel modules to work

I strongly suggest starting with a substantially larger case - tiptop mantis is an excellent starter case & still portable (unless you are a small child) - or significantly rethinking what will go in the case - for example a lot of the effects could be handled by effects pedals (don't forget some pedal interfaces for matching volume/impedence)

take a look at my signature & spend a significant amount of time considering the contents and how they would appky to any modular synth you might want to construct & then revisit the 'dream rack' applying these thoughts...

I'd also strongly recommend starting with a minimum viable synth - a sound source, a sound modifier, a modulation source, a way to play and a way to listen... plus an attenuverter/offset module (happy nerding 3 * mia for example) and a quad cascading vca - some of these functions may be overlap on modules - a Pams can do modulation & envelopes and quantized stepped random for instance & a quad cascading vca can also be used as a mono output

hint: start with the modules that are both wanted and needed and NOT the case

hope this helps...

EDITED Dec 3rd 2023, 19:17

can't agree more with what @HGSynth is saying above...

I'm not convinced more modulation is needed, in fact I'd probably go with less - and add more utilities to leverage the modulation that's there to produce more (& more interesting) modulation...

so more mixers (& usually I'd say more vcas - but I think you have more than enough) especially and End Of Chain Mixer (or more sub mixers) & at least 1 matrix mixer (predominantly for modulation purposes) would be useful...

more things like switches, attenuverters, clock dividers etc & even some mults... & yes I know pams can do a lot of clock division - but an external one is also useful... for example send an audio signal into a clock divider - /2 = -1ve, /4 = -2ve squarewave outputs (bassline)

also some control modules would be a good idea - so you can make big overall changes easily - but at that point an extra case might be useful - so you can have one vertical and one horizontal... this would also make room for a decent sequencer (I like the erica black) & EOC mixer...

one of those analogies @HGSynth mentioned above is my signature... take a look at it and spend some time thinking about it and how it applies to your rack... especially the formula!

hope this helps...

as i said i am completely inexperienced, what would be a setup that would help me get into generative music well. thanks. can you give me some concrete suggestions so i can research further?

-- wrna1

there are a load of hints above to further your research... and get you started...

I'd also at least try to answer the questions posed above!!!

if you can go to an actual store thaty sells modules - this can be difficult depending where you live

as a start:

get a case - I recommend a mantis as a good starter...

get a sound source, a modulation source, a sound modifier, a way to play and a way to listen...

this will give you a minimum viable synth - with quantized random looping a melody, modulation and an effect and you will learn the basics of modular - once you have learnt these modules quite well you can think about adding more modules - another sound source (if you started with digital go analog - or vice versa) - filter(s) - more modulation - more utilities - a different way to sequence etc etc - I'd suggest only 1 or 2 at a time so you can learn the new module(s) & how they interact with the old modules before before

a Pam's (new or pro - read the manuals and compare functionality/prices/availability) will cover modulation and a way to play

for a sound source almost any vco will do - you can sort by popular - either a digital or analog one will do... if you are going for mutable clones then After Later Audio make full size ones as do a couple of other manufacturers - I'd avoid micro modules (hard to tune) - but make sure you google and read aas many opinions as possible - there's at least 1 that gets both good and very bad reports - especially for customer service

for a sound modifier - the FX Aid pro - is easy to use and has modulation/ a scope* built in etc and includes delays/reverbs/filters/loads of other stuff for you to explore and help work out what you actually need - you will probably want at least one filter per voice - but for starters the fx aid pro has filters... otherwise doepfer have some inexpensive classics - the wasp is popular as is the SEM, with good reason

for a way to listen - a good quad cascading vca - such as a veils clone - is a good investment - vcas are for modulation/cv as much as for audio... and will act perfectly well as a mono output to start with... stereo can come later if you want/need it...

add in a happy nerding 3 * mia - mix/invert/attenuate/offset

so 5 modules to start - a vco, a Pam's (pro/new), an FX Aid Pro, a Veils clone and a happy nerding 3 * mia

buy some stackcables and some regular patch cables

you will need blind panels (cardboard will work perfectly) - to stop you dropping cables onto tthe busboard and shorting out the electrics

I'd also recommend going to the modwiggler 1u & 3u subforum and reading the 'newbies start here' and 'all you need to know about power' threads - at least the first couple of pages...

if you have questions, ask... no such thing as a stupid question etc...

• I'm not overly convinced by scopes - yes they can help visualise what a modulation source is doing - but we're working with audio - so use your ears - plug a modulation source into a vco's pitch input and you will hear what it is doing by the change in pitch

EDITED Dec 2nd 2023, 11:54

I'm actually pretty jazzed by this feedback. In retrospect, I eschewed a lot of audio manipulation modules until I was confident that I had an otherwise solidly working instrument and understood how to use a lot of the more "functional" modules

good

(I tried to take @JimHowell1970's tagline seriously).

as should everyone!!!!

Matrix mixers being a good example - it took quite a while until I actually understood just how flexible and useful one could be in a patch, so now I'm excited for number two (and a stereo one, at that!). Perhaps that A-119 should get a closer look as well, for the same reason.

they are extremely versatile, aren't they...

So it's good to know that my planned rack is in a place where I can explore these sound sculpting modules more comfortably while also saving hp for the future. It's a little overwhelming trying to choose between the vast number of high-quality modules out there while worrying if the amazing demo videos that I rely upon represent a module's actual capabilities or rather the patching talents (and complementary background modules) of the musician filming. Particularly since it seems like a new game changer is coming out every few months. I just finished watching hours on the Spectraphon, for example. To that end, I'll definitely consider the Nautilus, as I see it covers ground I'm otherwise missing and seems fun to play (an issue of key importance to me nowawadays, and one that should have been from the very beginning).

I very rarely watch new module demos... I might scan a modwiggler thread... but very rarely do I find something I want to add...

The Sinfonion as well, which I had not previously looked too closely at since I didn't realize my rack was large enough to support it, but might be a step in a very interesting direction, particularly with how many voices I plan to have available.

it's a great module - like almost all modules it's slightly flawed though... it really could have done with a built in sequencer to string song parts into songs... it's pretty simple to do, but needs a separate step sequencer...

Regarding utilities, I'm a true believer now, so I'm all ears for suggestions. Figuring out mid-patch that I'm lacking the right number of attenuators or inverters or whatevers to accomplish my musical goal is an annoying tradition I'm not looking to continue. Aside from the aforementioned matrix mixers, I'd love to hear what other utilty modules you would consider integral to your systems.

swirthes, trigger delays, sample & hold, track & hold, clock dividers - pretty much everything...

I'm sure I'll be back in 6 months with an updated version of this question, but that's probably how it should be (we're all learning here, afterall). Thanks again!

highly likely! have fun

always difficult to comment on racks of this size... looks reasonably comprehensive... I like and approve of the dual matrix mixers - I also have 2 and may add more in the future!

things I would add - but only in so much as they make life easier for me - a sinfonion (all the quantization etc needs in 1 place & chord progressions) & a fx aid pro (much easier to work with than the smaller ones)

I'd probably want more utilities too - I can never have too many....

Hello i am new and want to get into the eurorack world, what i am interested in is generative music. would this be a suitable starter setup, i could also imagine integrating my digitakt or my DAW.

what do i have to consider?

the ethics of buying from the b-company.... cheap(ly made), dreary and morally repugnant... but that's up to you... and your conscience

I'd go slower (ie start with fewer modules) and buy the real ones where possible - or clones from smaller companies, where possible (ie totally doable for not that much more cash)

I'd definitely bypass the fx module... find the cash and get an fx aid pro!!! way more fx, modulation inputs (one of the most important things in modular & a basic built in scope!

& the victor - search for it on modwiggler! - basically lacking modulation inputs - one of the most important things in modular and especially in 'generative' music

I'd get a tiptop mantis instead of the caixa - and get the utilities that you actually need - not what nano think you do... it's your custom synth, not theirs! this will also leave you with space to add more modules - which you will inevitably want to do sooner or later

why the marbles clone and the pico sequencer and pams and the midi->cv? all can do quantized pitch & gate - & when all of these include quantization - why scales??? ie too much sequencing - not enough of everything else!!!! I found the pico sequencer frustrating - especially the reset! - I would drop at least 1 & scales & if you want

why pam's new workout and not pams pro workout?

why a dedicated euclidean trigger sequencer when Pams can do euclidean?

not enough modulation... not enough utilities...

& no filters??? again a cornerstone of most modular synthesis...

take a look at my signature and take some time to seriously understand it - especially the formula - which is a rough guide to getting the most versatility (in patching) for the least expense...