"Muddy" sound from mixed output

Hello! I'm a relative newcomer to the world of modular synths and I'd like some advice on how to reduce the "muddiness" of my output. My basic knowledge tells me it's probably a result of having multiple sounds in overlapping frequencies, but I rarely see racks with EQ and that's my usual solution for that sort of thing. Anyone have recommendations or resources for me?

Currently I pipe everything through a Doepfer A-138n and it just goes into my computer or amp for me to listen to it. My preliminary research shows me info about output modules but I haven't been able to find any concise resources on the topic overall.

Thank!

Modular level is much higher than line level, so an output module (Ladik, Erica, 4ms, etc) will solve some of the problem. I believe, but I could be wrong, that the Doepfer mixer you're using sends everything out as mono signals. While I'm a big fan of mono mixes, the muddiness you are experiencing is likely due to the fact the the individual outs from your modules aren't going into a traditional mixer, then adjusted for the combined mono out.

It also occurs to me, that if each sound is being output first through its own VCA, you might have better luck with the output from the Doepfer (and its attenuators).

if you want to use your computer with modular buy an ES-8, that way you can send each signal separately to your computer and EQ to your hearts content there.

Also think about the frequency of your sounds and try to layer your sounds by octave range. This will result in a cleaner mix

Sometimes on filters you get different outputs like bandpass or highpass outputs which are good to use when you already have your bass sorted.

A mixer with stereo output, with its pan controls, would partially solve this problem.
I have a Tesseract unit Mixer+Master Out
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/tesseract-modular-tex-mix-4-mono-channels
and
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/tesseract-modular-tex-mix-master-section
Good quality-price ratio.
This module has send-return outs, mute switches and it's expandable.

Muddiness usually occurs in a mix when there are multiple lower frequencies, these tend to clash more than higher frequencies.
Do you have drums and/or multiple voices in you system that you use as bass sounds?
There are a couple of things you can try here:
- Narrow down the deep bass voices to one at a time, or mix them in one by one to see when it starts to sound muddy
- If you use multiple voices/drums in the lower frequencies, use highpass filters to filter out the lowest colliding frequencies
- Create a sidechain with you kick and bass: mult the trigger signal that triggers the kick to a AD/AR envelope, invert this envelope and set the offset to +5V, so that when the envelope is triggered the signal is moved from +5V to 0V and back. Patch the bass voice into a VCA with the CV controlled by the inverted/offset envelope, and patch this to the mix output. Now the bass gets "silenced" when the kick hits, creating a more clean mix
- Use two separate mixer modules (doesn't have to be a mixer as a lot of modules can mix signals among doing other things, MN Maths for example) and mix on your PC, as you usually have more options in a DAW for equalizing and to see at what frequency the issue occurs. Something like Expert Sleepers ES8 can work as well, you can send your separate sounds to the ES8 and mix them in a DAW.

Like mentioned in the posts above, it can also be that there's an issue with the loudness of the output from your eurorack, as these are generally way louder than normal synth/instrument volume levels. Try to decrease the volume output of your eurorack to see it if sounds less muddy.

Good luck!

Great tips from Joris above. I'm using an ES-9 myself (kinda like a big ES-8) to send all my channels separately to my iPad. I guess you can do the same on a PC/mac. Put each in a channel strip, then add any EQ or sidechain compression you like. I worked with a basic Ladik mixer and Befaco out before, but when I finally switched to AUM (audio mixer on iPad), it was a revelation. The ES-9 also has outs, so I send the mix back from iPad to the ES-9 where I can send it out to speakers or headphone. Having every channel in a channel strip setup also allows me to add a few effects when I run out of effect modules

Thank you everyone for the advice! I've definitely got some options to play around with. The ES-8 seems like exactly the piece of equipment I'd like to have, though my research is telling me it might not play well with Windows. Anyone have experience with that? Seems like it goes through ASIO4ALL which I recall being a bit finnicky to install but otherwise working fine on my old machine.

EDITED Oct 18th 2022, 15:06

Great tips from Joris above. I'm using an ES-9 myself (kinda like a big ES-8) to send all my channels separately to my iPad. I guess you can do the same on a PC/mac. Put each in a channel strip, then add any EQ or sidechain compression you like. I worked with a basic Ladik mixer and Befaco out before, but when I finally switched to AUM (audio mixer on iPad), it was a revelation. The ES-9 also has outs, so I send the mix back from iPad to the ES-9 where I can send it out to speakers or headphone. Having every channel in a channel strip setup also allows me to add a few effects when I run out of effect modules
-- Arrandan

I just got the ES-9 Eurorack Audio + CV Interface - can I just use it to mix inline and use the audio ins and out without going to the iPad - as in like in inline Mixer module - or is the entire purpose to use the ES-9 to get audio out as an audio interface?

Muddiness usually occurs in a mix when there are multiple lower frequencies, these tend to clash more than higher frequencies.
Do you have drums and/or multiple voices in you system that you use as bass sounds?
There are a couple of things you can try here:
- Narrow down the deep bass voices to one at a time, or mix them in one by one to see when it starts to sound muddy
- If you use multiple voices/drums in the lower frequencies, use highpass filters to filter out the lowest colliding frequencies
- Create a sidechain with you kick and bass: mult the trigger signal that triggers the kick to a AD/AR envelope, invert this envelope and set the offset to +5V, so that when the envelope is triggered the signal is moved from +5V to 0V and back. Patch the bass voice into a VCA with the CV controlled by the inverted/offset envelope, and patch this to the mix output. Now the bass gets "silenced" when the kick hits, creating a more clean mix
- Use two separate mixer modules (doesn't have to be a mixer as a lot of modules can mix signals among doing other things, MN Maths for example) and mix on your PC, as you usually have more options in a DAW for equalizing and to see at what frequency the issue occurs. Something like Expert Sleepers ES8 can work as well, you can send your separate sounds to the ES8 and mix them in a DAW.

Like mentioned in the posts above, it can also be that there's an issue with the loudness of the output from your eurorack, as these are generally way louder than normal synth/instrument volume levels. Try to decrease the volume output of your eurorack to see it if sounds less muddy.

Good luck!
-- deurstopjoris

Tons of good info here, thanks!

The side chain idea...is that a type of "ducking"?

I just got the ES-9 Eurorack Audio + CV Interface - can I just use it to mix inline and use the audio ins and out without going to the iPad - as in like in inline Mixer module - or is the entire purpose to use the ES-9 to get audio out as an audio interface?

-- Gonkeroo

There is a mixer built into the ES-9 that would allow you to do that. But it's really hard to understand how to configure it. And the most obvious way to control it is via a web interface on a computer, which is cumbersome. Also, it's not a live mixer where you can move a slider and it takes effect immediately: you change the settings, then you upload it to the ES-9 to take effect. So while possible in theory, I would strongly advise against it!

EDITED Dec 13th 2023, 19:29

The side chain idea...is that a type of "ducking"?
-- Jukeshoe

It's frequently used like that, yes. Suppose you have a bass line and a kick drum. If you sidechain compress the bass against the kick, the bass will typically duck when the kick hits.

EDITED Dec 13th 2023, 19:30