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@frown3n I can recommend you check out this link https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/9906 which is huge thing I put together months ago... the info / links at the top of that are relevant to "generative." It is food for thought, maybe too much food for thought... But overall the links are very interesting, and include deep & helpful stuff from Lugia, Farkas and a couple others from the forum. You'll glean a LOT if you dig into those posts and the example racks esp. those by Lugia, and his discussions of what's needed in the generative racks.

A few additional comments:

-- I love switches! Boss Bow 2, Switchblade, etc. My next major push is to be able to sequence sequences via switching (Boss Bow 2). Of course one can switch anything: audio, CV (envelopes, LFOs, etc). IMO adding some addressable (CV/gate/trigger controlled) switches adds a huge amount of depth and power to a setup. Verbos Sequence Selector is also worth considering.

-- in addition to switches, you could use additional Logic modules (e.g. OR/AND/XOR, etc.), maybe a couple clock dividers / ratchets (Doepfer has a lot of good options on this front), a derivator (like Joranalogue's one, or Metabolic Devices Coherence), plus more utilities like buff mults, averagers, and something like 4ms SISM to help you combine / wrangle CV from multiple sources. Joranalogue Morph 4 is worth consideration for mixing / mangling signals. The general theme here is, of the signal sources you have, what would be interesting ways to multiply, mangle, and recombine these? Logic and clock dividers also tend to be low on $s and HP so they're a great way to add power and depth with relatively low cost.

-- check out some "chaos" modules: see https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/10358 especially the last post there by a guy doing ambient installations in art exhibits. Really interesting.

-- 1 or 2 Instruo Ochd units are worth considering. Lots of additional LFO signal for little HP.

-- your build above has i) a packed case ii) a bunch of big modules. If at all possible, try to have 20-40% of your case space left over so you can add more modules in the future without immediately needing a larger case. In other words, you might consider your next build having a considerably a bigger case! You may also want to consider if your biggest modules above are better for you than several smaller modules.

-- Since you have Metropolix, getting it's add-on would give a lot of functionality for little incremental $s and HP; more signal to play with and route. And if you like the "sequencing sequencers" and/or switching ideas above, then you can think of split duties between your sequencers. Tiptop Z800 IMO is a great "companion sequencer" if running more than one unit.

-- I love that you have Scales in there. That will give you a lot of flexibility to extract pitch information from your non-stepped CV, or to have totally independent control of potential pitch values (e.g. by setting custom scales in Scales, and changing those with CV, which is what I do). Yes, most sequencers will already have quantize-able outs, BUT IMO there's a lot to be said for having independent quantizing lanes in addition.

-- I'm not really seeing any modules in your rack that I think are total mistakes, I see a lot of modules I love. But I am left with the impression you'll probably end up needing a larger case and some additional modules.

Well this turned out way longer than I had planned. Hope at least some of this is helpful! Good luck, and enjoy!

EDITED Aug 26th 2021, 22:31

Hi folks, thanks for the ideas above!

Update: I decided to go ahead with a few modules from NLC that I've been wanting for some time. Triple Sloths, Hypster and Squid Axon. Triple Sloths is well known and loved; Hypster was strongly recommended to me as something great for my use cases; Squid Axon, well me and the GF have a big kitty who acts like a giant squid quite often, so clearly I needed a Squid Axon. It actually does look like a cool and useful module, but names matter, I couldn't resist... BTW the videos on the bottom of the NLC module pages will show you what these do, in case you're curious.

I've had a scan of the modules mentioned above. IMO the Elby Designs and Zlob modules sound like very good alternatives / complements for the type of chaos I'm looking for. The Elby in particular are by Ian Fritz who also originated the ideas behind the NLC Hypster. I'll consider those in the future if I need to add more chaos. Wogglebug I would also likely add, if it was ever available...

I have to say, of all the Eurorack modules I've considered, the chaos modules are among the hardest I've found to compare / select. Some considerations I've come had:
-- smooth or jerky: for example NLC has some jerk chaos modules, don't think I need those now (and frankly can hardly imagine a musical use for them)
-- rate: slow like Sloths appeals to my use cases, as well as having some faster moving chaos signals. I can't yet imagine a musical use for audio-rate chaos signal
-- controls: I'm finding a lot of these units (esp the NLC ones) are more "user influenced" than "user controlled" e.g. one cannot rigidly constrain the chaos behavior, just "nudge" the behavior a bit here or there.
-- # of outputs: all things considered I'd like a chaos unit with more outs so it can add wander/slop to more destinations.
-- appealing videos: as the descriptions of the module can leave so much to the question "what does it do," the modules for which there are decent videos showing the module in action producing musically interesting (to me results) go to the top of my consideration set

Lastly, for those interested, there's a thread at MW by Ian Fritz that brings up many (and more technical) issues of chaos modules in Eurorack https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194284&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

I wanted to post this to wrap this thread up (at least from my end for now). Again, thanks for all the ideas and comments!

Hi folks,

As I expand my modular setup, I'm running into some power questions. I have zero electronics background, thought I'd ask for some help.

For the sake of easy #s, let's assume a sizeable draft rack in Doepfer Monster 12u plus 6u base case, power needs calculated by MG as approximately: 6000 mA +12V | 3500 mA -12V | 0 mA 5V

Questions:

1. how much of an electrical load will this present to my studio power circuit? From the above mA is it correct to assume 6 amps load from the modular any time it is on?

2. power channels & circuits: I initially thought "I should put a larger electrical load on 2 different circuits if possible" so I plugged in one case in one outlet and another on a further away outlet. Yuk! Big problems with noise and other very strange behavior like frequency sidebands on a sequenced sine wave (which of course should have no sidebands). Talked with my normal guy at Patchwerks who said "oh yeah, you want all your audio powered on the same circuit, or you can have various strange problems." I don't understand the issues at hand here, but it boils down to: run all your audio stuff on one power circuit if possible, or spread it on different power circuits? I'm in a home basement in the US so I assume 15 amps per circuit in general.

3. power regulation / conditioning: I have a ~$200 Furmann PL+C voltage regulator and conditioner, which has been decent. I wanted something to protect my studio gear and deliver "cleaner" power which would create less problems such as noise and electronics wear. But I'm not sure if my PL+C is up to the task of my current production + mixing setup? I know Furmann has a good reputation for quality, but I find their product literature baffling: I can't tell the practical performance differences between their $3600 box and their $200 box, both of which use the same marketing babble to describe their benefits. Any practical suggestions for power regulation for a production + mixing studio with ambitions of both quality output and longevity? I would invest in a new power solution if it is merited.

Thanks for your ideas and comments!

Nicholas

EDITED Aug 25th 2021, 02:34

Hey, this is cool, thanks for posting!

Only one comment (for future uses): Data 4 (yellow) is clipping on the scope. I assume that's the view on Data vs the CV itself going flat; if so, you could set that channel on Data to a larger volt value. But this is a minor comment; very helpful and interesting videos!

@Lugia, thanks, I'll read the whole thing! Curiously well timed reference to that book -- lately I've been trying starting compositions by getting strongly complementary ensemble sounds first, and notes later vs. the other order. Makes a big difference.

@Broken-Form and others, regarding your potential in-modular EQ needs:
-- suggest you check out Ladik EQs/Filters (https://ladik.ladik.eu/?page_id=7) these are small and cheap enough you could potentially handle several channels of EQ/filtering needs without a crushing HP or $ cost
-- also what comes to mind is Intellijel Mutamix for its ability to set levels and select among 3 bus outs. THAT would let you do some leveling and grouping before EQ/filtering. In the DAW I usually try to do as much group (vs channel) processing as possible as that often leads to a faster and better result. The group (stem) mixing approach in modular might have similar benefits. Not sure Mutamix is a great fit for you as you already have D.O.MIXX, but I wanted to at least mention the grouping/busing idea.

@Lugia, is there a specific part of the Rimsky-Korsakov you find most relevant for the topics at hand here?

That text is one I’ve had for a while but not spent much time with yet. I picked it off the shelf this evening and on a quick browse don’t immediately see a section most relevant to mixing (+arrangement etc). Yes I’ll study the whole thing in depth if that’s advisable. Thanks!!

Rossum filters are great. I have lineaus and evolution. Morgasmatron is also badass. Lineaus and Morgasmatron have changed my mind about what a filter can be; if I push them I get totally new unexpected signal. Filter as unique topology waveshaper in that case. Very west coast mentality. Evolution on the other hand is a beautiful ladder filter, expensive for a ladder but totally covers what I want from a ladder filter. Those are my three favorite Euro rack format filters so far. If I wanted to add any more filters I would check out the Joranalogue filter or some of the ones mentioned above.

@TumeniKnobs, yes what you described of Plaits+Sloths is exactly the main type of use case I'm planning: chaos signals routed into timbral controls. FYI bottom of Nonlinear Circuits pages often have videos where you can see their modules on scopes and hear results. But yes I would be interested to hear your configuration!

@Broken-Form, how many voices would you be running simultaneously?

I thought about this point a while back for my own rig. My conclusion was I would need to go into the DAW for EQ etc. if I was running enough voices; I thought doing a lot of EQ in modular, or having EQ hardware to run the modular into, just wasn't worth it for my uses.

I did get Mutable Shelves to be able to do a little EQing in modular. I don't use it too much, but it is helpful on occasions.

Thanks for the recommendations above folks!

@cmb_ is correct, I am presently more interested in "chaos" type modules which are different from random. The Elby link / description above is good. Put simply, chaos module outputs are less patterned than LFOs but more patterned than random.

The Nonlinear Circuits chaos modules are particularly interesting to me (https://www.nonlinearcircuits.com/modules?tag=Chaos). I'm going to get Triple Sloths. If people love/hate the other modules, I'd be interested to hear which ones and why!

In the meantime, I'll continue to check out the recommendations above, most of which I'd never heard of before. Thanks for the ideas everyone!

Hi folks,

I am thinking about adding some chaos modules to my setup in the near future.

My interest is to add some signal that is less strictly repeating than traditional LFOs / envelopes but more patterned than random. I would generally mix that in with other signal to add some musical “slop” “wandering” etc.

Top of mind are NLC Triple Sloths and Hypster.

Are there any other related modules you love and would recommend? If so what are they, why do you like them, and how are you generally using them?

A lot of the NLC modules look interesting to me but they are also rather baffling. So I thought this is a good point to ask for some suggestions on.

Thanks!!

Nicholas

EDITED Aug 19th 2021, 01:47

Thanks guys!

Good to see you back on MG Jim. I have PNW so the synch setup you mentioned is something I could do. I’ll try that when my new stuff arrives!

Ronin, ES-9 would be my go to choice if i weren’t for the “it will become your interface in Windows” issue. As I want to keep my interface setup as is, using ES-3&6 via ADAT seems like a great option. That is what I’m going for! I’m also adding CV Thing to do more basic MIDI so for example I can go modular to other hardware without having to involve a DAW.

All of this is very exciting, I hope it works well (eg stable and synched). I’m very excited at the prospect of having my control signals and scoring more networked. “Studio as instrument”…. Very very excited as this should help me get more use / joy out of some less used hardware I’ve had. Networking more of it to make “one big howling thing” should be a blast.

Thanks again for all the ideas and recommendations above guys!

Update: after a lot of looking I found ES-3 & ES-6 available (from 2 different vendors). I think that will be a strong solution for me because:
-- lightpipe (ADAT) I/O to my interface will spare me the "2 interfaces" issue noted above, and I have spare ADAT lanes on my interface to use for that. It should be a tight integration
-- I don't need a ton of I/O between the modular and DAW, I'm hoping ES-3&6 will be enough, but I could add some more "to modular" I/O with ES-5 and expanders if needed. The "to Daw" signal maxes out at 8 channels with ES-6 and its expander. I imagine I could get a 2nd pair of ES-3&6 if I really really needed more I/O, assuming I had the ADAT lanes to spare.
-- I like that ES is a premier brand in this space. I'm hoping by going with a trusted provider that I will have no stability / synch problems.
-- Motu828 (mentioned above) seemed like another plausible solution. But ES-3&6 costs less and has fewer hard to access (rear panel) connections for my particular setup. So I would consider that going forward if really needing more I/O, but for now ES-3&6 seems like a better pick for me.

I may be back with more questions / comments. One thing I've not figured out yet (and haven't tried because my modules haven't all arrived yet) is how to synchronize DAW & modular transport / clocking? Let's say I'm sending transport "play/stop" signals from my DAW, and clock from my DAW. That goes to modular, gets my clock/sequencer chain going. Then modular is sending audio, CV and gate back into DAW for recording. I'm hoping to synch/slave that all so that it's not a total chaos and mess; and so I don't have a ton of cleanup to do on the recordings in the DAW (e.g. if a lot of recorded tracks ended up off the metrical grid due to lack of clock&transport synch). Of course, suggestions on these points would be welcomed.

Shipping to Minneapolis (from Sweetwater or anyone else) was generally fine for me pre-pandemic. 2020+ it's all out the window. ETA means "sometime". "Signature required" means "whatever we feel like." My Erica Techno system was left at my neighbor's place yet "signed" by me -- really!? That is not a cheap mistake. Luckily, I saw the package, just grabbed it -- it did have my name on it.

My expectations of the delivery services are now close to zero; SO I make sure to work with vendors that are either well insured, or I know will make things up to me if there's a problem. My Sweetwater guy will fix any issue; as a result he's gotten a lot of business from me.

Perfect Circuit ships FedEx to me from CA. My packages run into black holes around LA and around Chicago. Some strange unknown cosmological process then decides when the package emerges again. I've got a room full of monkeys and Fermilab in a race to figure that out. I'm not holding my breath. FedEx does suck.

Maybe in 2022+ the shipping will again be "reliable"? Who knows. But for now, it's anything goes.

BTW anything I order from Patchworks (Seattle) shows up super fast and on schedule or ahead of it. Maybe I'm getting lucky where I am? Anyway they seem like a good bunch; I'd be happy to send 'em a bit more business.

I’ve been thinking / asking about this type of stuff too. See https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/10312 for a lot of ideas and resources

I’m going to get Expert Sleepers ES-3&6 as that will give me I/O via ADAT all run through my RME interface. So that saves me the “2 interface” issue which I don’t want to t try to deal with on my PC based setup. As I have ADAT lanes to spare this is IMO the simplest and tightest solution for my setup. If I needed more I/O there are add ons like ES-5 etc that can be added.

BTW stepping up to a good interface such as those from RME or UA etc is a big step up for your studio.

Hope this helps, cheers!

EDITED Aug 14th 2021, 05:52

Here's a great video Divkid does on the Joranalogue Contour 1 - Slew Limiter & Function Generator -- that should help!

Thanks guys! I'm still chewing on what options are best for me and available. Looks like ES3/5/6 are my preferred options presently as they could route into my existing interface options and by physically pretty easy to manage (vs. lots of re-patching in hidden corners of the studio). Yes making a more "networked" studio to bounce audio & CV around my various devices (like jb61264 going into Hydrasynth) would be great; makes me wonder how much I/O I will actually need!

I'll take a moment to bake into the thread some other helpful resources I've found on this question (in case anyone else refers back to this thread for info).
-- Sweetwater's list of DC-coupled interfaces: https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/which-audio-interfaces-are-dc-coupled/ ... lots of options including the MOTU devices mentioned above
-- Expert Sleeper's list of interface modules and expanders: https://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/moduleoverview.html
-- other options (mentioned above and consolidated here): Ornament & Crime, ADDAC 222/221, Befaco VCMC & CV Thing. Many basic "gate to MIDI" options from Doepfer, Ladik, VPME
-- Loopop on Midi to CV and back:
-- Divkid on Midi to CV and back:

EDITED Aug 9th 2021, 04:52

Okay good!

End of night here soon so a shortish post for now.

COMC#2 will have some stuff you don’t need. But it’s great overall. The “63 rules” of counterpoint he has, I take as “tendencies” eg what follows them tends to sound good and what busts them tends to sound bad. But it’s not clad in stone. Parallels, for example, are openly admitted in some styles of music. BUT the “63 rules” will give you a very good idea of if something sounds bad, why it does. And reducing the number and severity of flaws, what is left is much improved! Yes COMC books are “heavy lifting” but I totally needed these to get some command over writing pitched parts. COMC2 is a godsend IMO.

You mentioned Getting contrary motion might be a problem. Here’s a suggestion: drive a lane of Maestro’s CV through a quantizer. Take the same lane of CV and invert it, shift and scale it as needed, quantize that. Boom! Perfect contrary motion! Or same idea but just use a 2nd lane of Maestro going down or up, paired so it is contrary to the 1st voice. If using 2 lanes you can run them at different rates. If using a switch, you can toggle/switch in DC to give you oblique motion.

My Maestro won’t arrive for a few days so I haven’t implemented exactly this idea yet but I’m soon to test it IRL. In idea form it should work.

More later. Glad to have offered some help and stimulating ideas. Cheers!

EDITED Aug 8th 2021, 06:30

Apart from the “what modules” question there are some important music theoretical underpinnings to this effort.

2 moving pitched lines (here bass and lead) invokes all the problems of counterpoint. If you’re not already comfortable in this area I recommend Hindemith’s book. Not sure the exact title but you would find it pretty quick. COMC Book II if I recall…

From that, my ultra short counterpoint summary guidelines are: contrary motion sounds best, oblique next. Similar motion is good only in a small set of circumstances, usually over small distances. When both voices move, they usually need to go from consonance to consonance. Dissonances need to be carefully controlled. Beyond that are a lot of details that would basically require to read the Hindemith book and a lot of time at the keyboard hearing counterpoint problems and how to avoid or resolve them.

Practically, for your application:
— control of available notes (Pitch class sets) will be very important so your sequences are limited to tones that will pair well with the other line. I use Intellijel Scales to for this as I can set an arbitrary set of tones and CV switch between those sets.
— control of the motion of the 2 lines relative to each other (so that they are not in similar motion too often)

SO I can recommend you consider some modules including:
— Scales, or something like it, so you have definitive control on what pitches you’re allowing through
— Acid Rain Maestro or something like that. Six channels of time synched CV. Very jam-able. This way you could have for example up CV for one voice and down CV for another voice. Flow those through your quantization. That gives you complementary pitch values with controlled counterpoint! ARM is in your MG rack above, okay, good!
— some playable switching like Acid Rain Switchblade or Verbos Sequencr selector. That way you can have multiple “feeder” sequences and you play them with the switch. Of course the switches can also be CV driven.
— handling trigger/gate needs separately from pitch, or at least thinking of these as independent. You have Merton, that gives you a lot of options. Running your pitch values from independent lanes, and trigger / gate values from other lanes, that gives you huge flexibility.

BTW I didn’t scrutinize your MG draft rack too closely, just wanted to put out some ideas of what I would need if trying to do what you want to do.

I hope at least some of this is helpful. I hope my post does not sound condescending; I’ve struggled with a lot of these topics before and wanted to share a few of the helpful points I’ve learned. I’m interested to hear how this develops for you. I’ve been working on some similar directions and am curious to hear how this develops for you.

Cheers,

Nicholas

EDITED Aug 8th 2021, 02:26

Thanks for the input above @Lugia and @klodifokan.

Maybe this is not as tricky as I thought it would be? I'm still chewing on the topics at hand, while searching for modules that might fit my need and be in stock. Expert Sleepers modules likely would work for me (esp the Lightpipe versions ES3&6) but stock is out on that stuff.

I am still wondering, assuming you get CV into the DAW, then what? Route / process it with Silent Way plugins? Certainly I'll find more info via additional Google & Youtube searches. But if anyone who's already running this in DAW has comments, I'm very happy to hear them!

Thanks for all the input above guys! I think I'm narrowing in on what could be good next adds for me. Much appreciated!!

Garfield, glad my post above gives some helpful input / food for thought.

Sounds to me like you're doing the reports mainly for your own learning process. Makes sense to me.

Yes, lots to chew on, we can pick it up later.

Cheers, NG

Addendum:
-- a bunch of the Expert Sleepers units might be candidates, but I'm not sure about the "1 at a time" interface issue noted above. Maybe what Expert Sleepers mean by "interface" is not the same as what live means when selecting my RME UFX as the single "interface"...
-- when it comes to trigger / gate to MIDI, it looks like there are some options including Doepfer, Ladik, VPME
-- CV to MIDI there are some other options. ADDAC 222/221 could be usable? Befaco VCMC and/or CV thing? Delptronics CV to MIDI ("coming soon")?

So those are some of the candidates I've seen so far. But as the note says above, I would LOVE to hear suggestions from people who have succeeded with this kind of connection into DAWs for songwriting (or similar) purposes. Obviously there's a lot that could go wrong, and anything less than a solid and low-latency connection would be a recipe for frustration.

Thanks for any suggestions you may have!

EDITED Aug 6th 2021, 05:34

@GarfieldModular, I had a look at one of your reports (Waldorf) and it is very extensive and well done. It would be nice if that info was available for most modules!

Given your comments above such as "enormous amount of work," "5 modules of 8000," etc. I may respectfully suggest an alternative including:
-- how about a significantly shorter report that uses the key parts of your template and key features of the module, but is much quicker for you to produce and quicker for the reader to read?
-- how about a short-ish companion video that goes over the key features and findings listed in your report, and links to the report?
-- if you do get to a format that is faster for you to complete, how about spending dedicated chunk of time trying to cover the more interesting modules available in one segment (e.g. sequencers, complex oscillators, etc.)? Then your detailed work would basically line up with and support a bunch of the summary findings given in lists like Doudoroff's (https://doudoroff.com/sequencers/). And after you cover one "cluster" of interesting modules, then you could move to a next interesting cluster. If out of ~8000 modules there are 10-20 interesting subgroups and you cover 5-10 most interesting modules in a group, then its possible your sample of modules could become pretty representative, even if a small % of the total.

Personally when I am researching modules, I am thankful if there is a Divkid or Loopop video as those tend to be excellent, whereas a lot of other videos are not so helpful to me. Also the range of manuals in the modular domain I find from great to poor to non-existent. Hence, IMO if you were doing short strong videos + documentation I think that could be very helpful for some viewers / readers.

FYI I find in general I'm willing to normally spend up to 15 minutes of my time looking at a module I might buy, maybe 1-3 hours if it is a particularly deep module, important module for my setup, or unusually expensive. Then for modules I do buy, I'm looking to get up to speed as fast as possible, and again, only do a lot of manual reading or internet search if there's a big particular need for that specific module. So in almost all cases, I'm looking for a review on a module that is good, but also as fast as possible for me to get the info I need. I tend to prefer Divkid videos above all else because they efficiently cover the technical details of the module then really help me understand and hear some of the musical possibilities of the module.

I must say also, I am left wondering "what's in it for you?" with this effort: is it a labor of love, a way to generate (web) traffic, a way to get comp modules, a way to generate $s somehow, some or none of these? I might have additional feedback if I knew more about the broader context / direction / priorities of these efforts for you.

Feel free to use or ignore any of my comments above. I hope at least some of this is helpful to you!

EDITED Aug 5th 2021, 23:48

This is super helpful input guys, thanks!!

@farkas that's a great suggestion for synching driven by PWN. As I already have a PWN your suggestion will be my go-to fixit should the need arise. I also have a Malekko Quad Gate Delay I could use if needed, but I'd rather keep that free for creative purposes; plus trying to get the sequencers to synch through manual adjustment sounds to me like a fiddly and potentially frustrating or failing effort.

If anyone else has suggestions to make via synching multiple sequencers (see above), feel free to chip in.

Thanks to the ideas above and the related "favorite seqeuncer" thread, I'm narrowing in on what could be a great multi-sequencer setup for me, which is ultimately in the interest of creating a "modular-based scoring system" which can spit out the backbone parts of a songwriting effort. I've not yet solved how to connect that to my specific DAW+PC down the line: I posted that query as a separate thread: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/10312

I feel somewhat embarrassed by posting what seem to me like several "dumb$ss newbie" questions in a row. Sigh... Modular is definitely deep, and I can use a hand here and there. Thanks again to everyone offering friendly pointers, advice and perspectives!

NG

Hello,

I started in modular ~Feb 2021. I'm now in the middle of planning a significant expansion to my already nice setup. Thanks to the many MG forum people who've shared such helpful advice along the way!!

Question: what are preferred modular to DAW solutions for sending CV and/or midi into a DAW? In my case, this is a Windows PC normally running Live 11 but with a few alternative DAW choices on hand (including Bitwig).

My ideal future use case would be as follows:
-- use my modular setup for a majority (70%+) of composition tasks on a song via some combination of complex sequencing plus jamming
-- send MIDI+CV into the DAW for recording to capture the foundational "score" parts of the song I'm writing
-- send select audio from modular into the DAW for recording to capture (a few but not all) key audio parts and performances
-- use what I've recorded into the DAW as the foundation of a song; use the DAW the rest of the way to finalize the composition / arrangement / production to the point of being mix-ready
-- throughout the process, being able to use my normal audio interface + monitor setup for monitoring
-- net net, this type of use case would get me away from the DAW-based compositional process which is very mouse and keyboard focused. I would love to be able to handle a lot of the scoring in the modular domain!

At this point, I DO know Expert Sleepers modules (such as ES-9 or ES-8) are regularly used for such tasks. What I DON'T know is what setups are preferred for Windows+DAW(Live) because to my knowledge I can use only one audio interface at a time in my DAW. What I'm concerned about is if I'm running an Expert Sleepers module, will I lose my ability to monitor audio across the entire DAW session (because ES would replace my normal interface in the "1 at a time" interface environment of Live on my PC)?

If you know of good modular-to-DAW solutions that will work on a PC please let me know! And again thanks for the many contributors who've offered me advice recently and over past months.

Much appreciated!

Nicholas

EDITED Aug 6th 2021, 01:21

Synching multiple sequencers: for you folks running 2+ sequencers, are you using any special modules or techniques to get perfect synchronization? Ronin (above) and some others have warned me about sync problems. Before I add more sequencing its worth considering if and how I can get the units all lining up rhythmically. Thanks for all the ideas!

I have a ton of U-he software and love it. I thought about adding CVilization to my modular setup but on inspection it is too darn complicated for me! I have a significant modular setup and super function-dense modules with intense manuals are too much for me presently. Too bad though, I was looking forward to U-he in modular form!

I love SISM, I don’t have an issue that it’s basically manual, I use it to constrain ranges. BTW Instruo Tanh3 is kind of the opposite for me, pushing more of the signal towards the min&max values; Klavis Flexshaper is something I might try for similar purposes.

If you’re set on CV control for attenuation and mixing, 4ms VCA Matrix may fit your needs.

For new stuff I might suggest Tiptop Z8000 as an interesting CV / sequence source. I’m likely getting one of those soon. Other items that may be interesting adds for you would include the Joranalog Morph 4 (see esp. the Divkid Video on that one!) and NonLinear Circuits stuff (particularly Chaos and/or logic modules).

Thanks for the update, looking forward to hearing what's next for you!

EDITED Aug 4th 2021, 21:45

Hello,

I'm about 7 months into modular (but a longtime musician & synthesist). I've got a good modular setup and am now considering EXPANDING it, particularly with one or more additional Sequencing modules. I already have Vector + Expansion, and it is very good IMO. Still, I am looking to build out to a more "complex sequencing chain" as discussed in these 2 posts:
i) https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/10262
ii) https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/9467

My next sequencer(s) could include CV and/or trigger/gate sequencing -- I'm pretty open in consideration presently. I am digging into sequencer videos and manuals online BUT am coming away with a not so great idea of what makes one module superior for particular users. So, for those willing to share, I am wondering: what are your favorite sequencer modules? What in particular do you like about them? Why did you choose those over credible alternatives? What are some of the most important things did you not like about those others you passed up?

Some particular units I'm hoping to understand better include Eloquencer, Tiptop Trigger Riot, Tiptop Circadian Rhythms, Frap USTA, WMD Metron, Verbos Multistage CV + Sequence Selector, Rene2, Euclidean Circles v2. But feel free to mention any sequencers you really love / hate. I WILL likely add further "supporting units" such as switches, logic, adders, busses, etc. that are helpful (if not also necessary) for "complex sequencing;" that said, this point, I'm more focused on ID'ing what may be the top candidates for additional sequencer modules to add.

I have tried to glean related info from other spots on the forum, but surely I've missed some, so please feel free to post other thread links as relevant. BTW I've used the Doudoroff list as the general sequencer list (https://doudoroff.com/sequencers/)

To summarize and simplify, I'm wondering if we have a "modular sequencer shootout" of items in the 2021 marketplace, which modules rise to the top and why?

Thanks all!

Nicholas

EDITED Aug 4th 2021, 00:29

USTA is another I've considered. Looks very good! Also out of stock at my vendors : (

As I continue to try to wrap my head around the possibilities of multiple sequencers + downstream logic & utilities, it occurred to me "I could model a lot of that in Excel." A lot of 1s and 0s, small integers representing quantized pitch CV, AND, OR, XOR, etc., yes that would work fine in Excel. The main problem is !!!BORING!!!... but I'm imagining a few hours with a spreadsheet would go a long way in helping me understand this -- as I'm still trying to wrap my head around "if I take XYZ basic sequences and push them through ABC units downstream, what outputs do I get?" AND if I get a better grip on that, it tells me better what (if any) additional sequencing capabilities would be useful. I'll post more if I have any interesting findings on this.

In the meantime, I'm crossing my fingers Patchworks (Seattle) might find me an in stock unit I like!

EDITED Jul 28th 2021, 21:16

SO, after some more thought, IMO the practical next steps for me are:

-- grab another sequencer when one I like is in stock. I generally don't like very menu divey modules or ones with huge instruction manuals; I prefer something that can be learned by working with front panel controls and modest manual/video reference. My current top picks for a next module are Rene2, Verbos Multistage CV, and as I'm interested in acid, the Stepper Acid. Those are all out of stock currently at my preferred vendors. Waiting would be okay. I'm also considering Mimetic Digitalis or Verbos Sequence Selector to give an ability to select sequence steps like @Ronin1973 was discussing; both of those modules remain somewhat baffling for me, the Verbos especially. WMD Metron is a top candidate for me for trigger / gate sequencing, though I'm feeling that as a lesser priority currently. And @Lugia and @eexee points about a smaller seqeucner being useful, I will keep in mind. Then of course I would need supporting modules (some of which I have on hand already), @farkas ideas of switch and bus would be great, as well as the variety of support modules mentioned by Lugia above. SO many possibilities!!!

-- all considered, more time on rig, more exploration using what I have, that should help me get a clearer sense of what will suit my tastes. But practicing is harder than fantasizing about new modules! ; )

Last, a couple random responses to above items:
-- @eexee, thanks for the post and video above, very cool! I also suffer from a lost post every now and then. Re: Nerdseq, it looks deep, powerful, and well respected (?), but IMO its not for me because of the interface. If it appeals to you, then it could be a good choice!? On scanning the Doudoroff list, I did not see a lot else that looks just like it, it seems pretty unique. I can recommend you check out Five12 Vector, it is very powerful, yet still very easy to use, which is great for me.
-- @farkas, I'll have to try the switch and bus setup you mentioned, that definitely appeals to me! BTW have you yet seen the additive sequencing post (#5 above)? I get a sense that that setup would be interesting for you.

Thanks everyone! Additional ideas / questions / comments would be welcomed.

EDITED Jul 27th 2021, 22:11

Thanks everyone for the replies above!

Informed by those ideas, and in hopes of giving myself some further clarity on the issue, I'll try to summarize below what I presently see as the main use cases for multiple sequencers (note what follows are not strictly exclusive of one another):

1. more sequencing lanes & CV outputs: simple idea here, yes, but sometimes you just need more
2. running different instruments or instrument groups: the most standard instance of this would be percussion on one sequencer, pitched on another
3. complementary sequencer styles: for example, a "normal" sequencer vs. an acid specialty sequencer vs. a "euclidean" sequencer like Rene 2, etc. A good list of sequencers with style labels is at: https://doudoroff.com/sequencers/
4. derived sequencing: requires 2 or more sequence signals run through logic (e.g. AND modules, etc.) to output a derived signal. This hits on what @Lugia was indicating in his 1st post above. Tons of ways to do this, potential modules to involve, potential patching. In general, this gives a good way of getting some complexity and change in an output signal from two pretty basic input signals.
5. additive sequencing: not wholly distinct from other techniques mentioned here, but worth spelling out, this is adding gate signals to construct more general stepped CV signals, see https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/9928 for a very interesting detailed example
6. function-specific sequencing: an example of this would be like @Ronin1973 indicated, e.g. where one sequence chain is driving pitch CV and another is driving gate/trigger signals. The main premise here is, for a single instrument voice, there are multiple sequence inputs driving the score and realization
7. compound sequencing: sequencers feeding sequencers, as if SeqA outputs go to SeqB inputs, or SeqA outputs go to SeqA inputs (if it was capable of that kind of feedback). This is kind of a bottomless pit topic, and surely depends on the specs of the sequencers involved

Of course one or more of these use cases could be combined at any given time, if the modules support doing so.

[This post is edited to shorten... additional ideas / comments later.]

EDITED Jul 27th 2021, 19:22

Great comments above! Thanks!!

One above that especially suites my direction is @Ronin1973's suggestion "Having separate trigger/clock sequencers and separate CV/pitch sequencers allows sequencing to be deconstructed into its elements. I use a Temps Utile running either a Euclidean, step, or logic functions to drive a Memitic Digitalus from Noise Engineering. There are trigger inputs on the MD that control step advance, reset, or even skipping around +-4 steps, or randomly." That "decoupling" of pitch and rhythm information is very appealing to me.

I'm running around this weekend but will need to give these comments further reflection soon.

In the meantime, can I invite some comments from @JimHowell1970, @troux, @GarfieldModular, @farkas and others? The folks I've named, I maybe recall seeing some older posts of yours on similar topics?

Any further ideas to add to the above, along the topic "what great can look like" with a multi-sequencer setup?

Much appreciated!!

@Lugia, thanks for the ideas above! Since my Vector+Expander can run multiple lanes of sequencing, it would seem I already have enough "source signal" to feed the type of signal flow you're indicating above. Cool -- I don't absolutely have to buy another sequencer unit to dig into this line of exploration.... still I'll probably want to add at least a Rene2 when I can get my hands on one!

Other forum folks, do you have anything to add to the discussion / ideas / suggestions re: multiple sequencers?

Hi folks,

I've been in modular a few months now -- got a nice setup (thanks to a lot of forum feedback and ideas), and I am having a lot of fun going deeper into it.

As I think about the future of my setup, one thing I'm considering is MULTIPLE SEQUENCERS. I have Five12 Vector sequencer with expansion presently, like it a lot, and still have plenty more to learn about it (and harnessing its power with the expansion). But I am thinking "well what if I add Make Noise Rene 2" when available? What if over time my rig evolves to have 2-4 sequencers playing various roles?

This is a topic I've really not gotten deep on yet, so I wanted to ask some advice from around the Forum:
-- are you using multiple sequencers? If so, what for? Percussion vs. pitched tracks are an obvious possibility. Are there other interesting "complex sequencing" or "compound sequencing" tasks you're performing?
-- what types of useful techniques and patching do multiple sequencers open up to you that you couldn't just do with a single good one?
-- what capabilities did you want from your "compound sequencing" setup? What are the important "supporting" modules you needed to add, that aren't themselves sequencers, but were needed to get the compound array working as you desired?
-- are there any great videos, posts or threads you would point me towards? For any references, let's try to focus more on "compound / complex sequencing" and less on broad "generative" topics (see below).

I'm not currently interested in a full "generative" setup BUT my thinking is certainly influenced by that stuff. Basically I would like some sequencing that takes advantage of the powers and freedoms inherent to the modular domain, beyond sequencing that is a mirror image of general DAW sequencing or ~80s hardware.

Ideas? Comments?

Thanks!!

Nicholas

Some module suggestions:

-- Erogenous Tones units would be my top suggestions as you could add a LOT of envelopes, simple LFOs, VCAs, attenuverters etc with a few modules, e.g., get a lot of "power up" to your rig with little HP by using these very "dense" modules. I consider something like 4ms SISM or ET Levit8 critical in a medium to large system; I need at least 1 SISM if not more in a big build. ET VC8 would be a very HP efficient way to add VCAs if you're needing more.
-- Instruo Ochd, I see you already have, but honestly you could stand even more LFOs in a rig this size? Ochd is a great choice, I have multiples. I love Mutable Instruments Tides, but that is rather different from Ochd. If you're going to get ET Radar, those 8 lanes can be used as simple LFOs or as envelopes
-- WMD performance mixer, as others have said, just makes a ton of sense with a system this big
-- the Random and Chaos type units from NonLinear Circuits are IMO very interesting and on my list of "next" modules
-- if you wanted to add further sources and filters, the Rossum stuff is great. Their filters have really changed my mind what a filter is.

Other comments:
-- looking at your build and comments, I'm seeing a ton from Erica (Techno, Fusion, Black systems), MN Black and Gold, and a major portion of the Instruo lineup. Can you share with us a little i) how you got to your existing system ii) some of your goals / vision for your system as it evolves? That would help us give a bit more tailored input

-- if I had the units you do, I would probably focus next on adding a significant number of "boring" modules, utilities and such, to "superpower" the modules already possessed. IMO the "boring" modules are hardest to understand initially, but go a very long way to add depth and playability to a modular system. My early systems were overly skewed towards sound sources; as a result, the system seemed "flat" (e.g. lacking real depth, power, complexity). It was adding a big complement of "supporting lineup" modules that really balanced my rig and gave it a lot of depth and interest. I think this rig could get a great lift from an added complement of utilities. To that end, practically, I'd suggest you scan through the more "humble" looking offerings from Doepfer and Ladik; for not a lot of $s or HP you could really add a ton of function and depth to your rig. The options from Deopfer and Ladik are too numerous to list, and particular selections really depend on what direction you'd like to take your rig.

-- what are the semimodular items you mentioned using for a lot of modulation etc? It's kind of hard to get a real sense of your setup without knowing the significant external items you link to the modular to fulfill some needed modular functions. Maybe you don't need some of the items I'm suggesting because they're already represented in your semi-modular?

Hope this helps some! Cheers, Nicholas

Thanks @merkzy_shoom and @LYFoulidis, those are very helpful additional ideas! The generalized idea of offsets + a switching array is surely something that would work well for my scenario. I'll need to trial that on my rig in the near future. Much appreciated!

EDITED Jul 11th 2021, 00:06

Okay, one more related idea on this end. I have a few shifting inverting scaling utilities like 4MS SISM. Let's say I take a DC output (like Instruo 2f Fader or anything else similar), I mult that 4x, and send the 4x DC signal to SISM's inputs. Then SISM lets me scale and shift those inputs at will, and send downstream to destinations like the timbre controls on my complex OSCs. Then my 2f Fader is the "macro control" and SISM manages all the CV ranges. That type of setup would let me get some "macro" control with the modules I have (without needing a dedicated controller like FSS Makrow or Addac306).

Folks, any other ideas to add to the above threat on control / sequencing / playing of timbre?

Thanks @defragmenteur, I will check out those modules in greater detail! Frames in particular has been baffling to me on prior looks; more soak time with the manual and videos will help.

@Lugia, I'm curious if you would have anything to add to the above discussion?

Thanks all!

EDITED Jul 1st 2021, 21:43

[deleted]

EDITED Jul 8th 2021, 19:25

BTW what about using a standard sequencer but routing the results through scaling and transposition?

Modules: vermona Amplinuator would give you scaling including over 1x, "AJH synth precision voltages" would give transposition.

From the Ideas described in video above I think this might give you a solution in modular. Might be a pain to calibrate or dial in initially. But IMO this could work!? This is a potential solution only for the tuning side of the problem; what remains is the OSC to get a suitable timbre. That said, I would think the complex OSCs with FM (or any good FM implementation) would give you good options for getting inharmonic yet tracking partials.

I've been thinking about how to use my sequencers for stuff other than pitch control; routing them through attenuverter with offset is a good option for me to try. Made me think again of this thread.

Please let us know if you have progress on your effort. Good luck!

EDITED Jun 27th 2021, 06:07

@voodoochild16, any news on this?

That's a huge build... will be a lot to chew on!

I will also be interested to hear how Flux is in use.

Hope all's well! Nicholas

Thanks @farkas!

Yes Makrow is worth a serious look for this application! Doing more internet search on this topic, Addac306 looks very similar to FSS Makrow. Tiptop Z8000 might be a fit from a sequencing perspective. Are there other good candidates / techniques to consider here?

Of course the span between sweet spots is sometimes nice sounding, sometimes terrible, depending on the patch. So sometimes I want to sweep the control value, whereas other times I would need to step it.... All this also makes me wonder if there are quantizers that can be set to arbitrary (non scalar) values without a tuning input file; basically a quantizer with knobs that lets you set any step values? With one of those, I could feed any CV input (say a lfo) and custom tune the output to 2 or more "sweet spot" values (which would then feed DPO FM timbre controls).

I do own attenuverters with offset (SISM etc.), so I do have existing options for timbre control with standard CV and/or sequencing. Just trying to go further and have a good scheme for controlling / switching / sequencing a patch's timbre sweet spots, including FM patching.

EDITED Jun 28th 2021, 22:29

Hi folks,

Good news, I'm making enough learning progress on my modular setup to be able to find some real nice timbral sweet spots, such as in the complex oscillators like Make Noise DPO and other complex generators.

Makes me wonder, let's say I find 4 good "sweet spots" for a given patching, what are elegant ways of going from "sweet spot" 1,2,3,4 with switching, sequencing, morphing, etc.? For example if I have a setup involving FM and find a couple different settings giving me good (but different) FM timbres, what's the elegant / efficient way to move between those settings in a patch setup? Obviously I don't want to do stuff by hand all the time because I can't perform that fast or accurately enough.

And of course, some timbral "sweet spots" may rely on 2+ input settings, such as pitch plus FM depth. So I would need to be able to manage changing multiple input values. On the DPO it would be easy to imagine wanting to change pitch, FM depth, and the wavefolder settings, for example, to go from "sweet spot" 1 to 2 to 3, etc.

Is there a good way to satisfy this "setting and switching between sweet spots" task in modular? Feel free to recommend techniques, patching and/or specific modules.

Thanks everyone!

Nicholas

EDITED Jun 25th 2021, 23:06

I suggest you look at Lugia's draft racks and posts on the forum -- that will give you LOTS of ideas on what directions you could go. Lugia's racks are well designed, balanced, and a good use of HP. And his posts on rack designs are great.

The modular domain is SO wide open, IMO it takes having a concrete vision "this is my draft next rack, HP to work with, budget etc." and some iterations improving the design (with forum help) to go from an infinity of options to a next build that actually makes sense, sounds good, and is fun to use.

As far as actual modules go, I love complex oscillators (like Make Noise DPO and Instruo C-sl), wavefolders (like Intellijel Bifold) and power-filters (like Rossum Linneaus, Morpheus, or Intellijel Morgasmatron). Those types of modules embody what makes modular fun and interesting for me. So, I recommend you consider what types of modules are inspiring to you, and consider what type of build will support those. And remember, you'll need a good number of utilities to make a modular system work well! Balancing the modular system so it has a good proportion of module types -- this is key.

Good luck. Enjoy!

Since your main interest is Ambient, a few ideas that come to me from quickly scanning your rig:

-- Joranalogue Morph 4 for blending / mixing signals in interesting ways. DivKid has a great video on that and his demonstration goes way way beyond what I would imagine the module could be used for.

-- maybe some of the "Chaos" modules from Nonlinear Circuits to add a bit of musical sloppiness to your patches?

-- some of the Rossum filters might be fun for you, like Linneaus and/or Morpheaus. The Rossum filters have really changed my idea of what a filter is -- e.g. it can be not only a filter in the classical sense, but also a more complex waveshaper or part of the soundsource depending on how you patch it.

-- for me, a lot of the joy of modular is in complex oscillators (like Make Noise DPO, Instruo C-sl, etc.) and waveshapers. These might not make a ton of sense in an Ambient setup? But when I see a larger modular setup (like yours) that doesn't already have a couple modules like that, I think "why not add some if you have room and $s"? For waveshapers, I particularly like Intellijel Bifold; Joranalogue Fold 6 and Instruo's shapers are also nice. All of those are probably a bit more controlled than the Plasma Drive (the PD I'm familiar with only through some videos).

My responses above are very much "free association," not at all a disciplined list of "must have" adds. And I know your post is UTILITIES focused; my list above is ideas across any module type. But I would hope at least 1 of these ideas above is interesting or useful for you.

Cheers!

Nicholas

EDITED Jun 12th 2021, 21:55

Triple Sloths is from the Nonlinear Circuits lineup. IMO everything in their Chaos lineup of modules is very interesting and I intend to add more than one of those to my system in the next 6 months.

To my understanding, the Chaos type modules are basically an alternative to random modules. Some would say (and I would agree) that in general random is not very musical; the main use case I have for random is adding a small amount of it to various parameters. Chaos, on the other hand, is loosely patterned -- imagine for example a drunk person riding on a bike going around a figure 8 track; they follow the track, but not exactly. This type of loosely patterned behavior, many people including myself would consider musically useful: it is repetitive enough to indicate some type of cycle, but loose enough to never repeat strictly, and hence keep generating interest. My intended use cases for the Chaos oscillators is to add some "slop" to my other parameters, and combine it with other tighter LFOs to get a looser complex mod signal. Not so different from how one might use random, but IMO a bit more useful due to its semi-patterned behavior. There are surely many other uses for these types of chaos modules. To my knowledge, Triple Sloths gives 3 "chaos" signals ranging from slow, slower, to very slow.

BTW many other modules from that manufacturer look interesting (if somewhat baffling) to me.

Good luck, enjoy!

Hi @ninetoincline, welcome to modular and Modular Grid!

A few comments:

-- your initial draft rig above isn't bad. Do consider if you need a dedicated audio out like 4ms listen, or if you don't need something like that given your intended use case(s).

-- DEFINITELY suggest you consider a larger case. Whatever your initial design is, it's best if you can have an additional 25-50% (or more) space left in your case so you can comfortably add some modules as you learn more

-- Pressure Points may or may not make sense in this build. Depends how you want to control things. It takes up relatively a lot of HP in this small draft case, so do consider if you really want / need it here.

-- of the modules you have above, I would consider Maths, PWN, Plaits, Quad VCA and Wasp very good (almost "no regrets") modules, so you definitely have some very useful picks already included.

-- IMO part of the joy of modular is complex oscillators (like Make Noise DPO or Instruo Cs-l) and wavefolders (like Intellijel Bifold); those do things that aren't easily done in VSTs or normal monosynths. Also part of the joy of modular is lots of modulation, and modulating modulators: to do that, you need enough modulation sources plus some control/mixing. Hence you might consider more modulation sources, things like Mutable Stages, Xaoc Batumi, Instruo Och-D, etc., plus a way to control and mix them like 4MS SISM, Tiptop MISO, and/or VCAs dedicated to your CV control.

-- almost everybody starting out underestimates the need and value of "utilities" in a modular system. In software and hardware synths, the utilities are generally in the "background" (e.g. not in the marketing material used to sell the synth) but are absolutely necessary to make everything else work. IMO a good way to learn modular utilities is to browse all the modules on Doepfer, Ladik, Joranalogue, Intellijel and Mutable Instruments catalogues, and to study anything that isn't obviously a sound source or filter. Mutable's Links and Kinks (or something like them) deserve to be in most modular systems. Keep in mind you need enough utilities in your rig to make the "fun" modules really shine.

-- last, I recommend you lookup user Lugia on this website, and examine a lot of his different draft racks. They tend to be very thoughtful and give excellent ideas of what different well-designed modular systems can look like. There are some good designs by other folks too, but I know for a fact there are a ton of interesting draft Lugia racks available to view.

Hopefully other folks on the forum can add some comments / further help for you.

Good luck, enjoy!

Nicholas

I am spending the late hours with a sleepy cat, sparkling wine and my Five12 Vector Sequencer manual. Who said the pandemic can’t be exciting!

FYI p.6 says Vector supports any custom tuning in the MTS (midi tuning specification) format. So Vector would offer you a very powerful sequencer that supports custom tunings. Not only could this give you your fundamental pitch values but because Vector supports multiple independent parts, you could use the additional part pitch information to drive settings for your upper timbral partials. So maybe all you need is a great sequencer that supports multiple parts in nonstandard tunings, some OSCS with great pitch tracking, a tuner to help you tune OSCS to get your initial timbre, and a MST tuning file that supports your desired timbre and complementary scale. This might save you the need of finding very specialized oscillators. An option worth thinking about anyway.

Cheers!